A move I make more often than not. Leak, or standard play?

[octaveshift]

If I enter levels 4-5 with t900 or less, I usually play very aggressively to build my stack. This means I either end up with a decent stack for the bubble, or I end getting broke in 5th or 6th place trying to accumulate.

Here is an example. BB was tight-passive, having seen around 4 flops up until this point. Is this standard?

***** Hand History for Game 2218538231 *****
100/200 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 13159978) - Thu Jun 16 23:24:26 EDT 2005
Table Table 14945 (Real Money) -- Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: Saden (795)
Seat 4: XsoulrebelX (3500)
Seat 6: BorgataAAAA (685)
Seat 7: andersncsu (907)
Seat 8: devo32 (1178)
Seat 9: xyrophobe (935)
xyrophobe posts small blind (50)
Saden posts big blind (100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to xyrophobe [ 4d, 5d ]
XsoulrebelX folds.
BorgataAAAA folds.
andersncsu folds.
devo32 folds.
xyrophobe raises (885) to 935
xyrophobe is all-In.

[stillbr]

Hmm...the BB is still only 100. I wouldnt push here without a decent hand.

[Asgrow13]

Depends on your image and what sort of read you have on the BB (will he give up his blinds, or is he going to make stupid calls with marginal hands?)

Assuming you haven't been raising so much that people have stopped giving you any respect whatsoever and you think that the BB is relatively tight, I say go for it. Put yourself in his position... there just aren't that many hands that you can call this all-in with.

[dmmikkel]

This is a very good push I think.

- It's +$EV even with a very loose calling range on BB
- The extra chips will enable you to steal more
- The chips BB lose will give you a larger advantage the next time you push because he now can't bust you by calling as he could if you folded this

I'd push this any day

EDIT:
I forgot to mention 45s is also a very good hand to have if he calls.

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]


- It's +$EV even with a very loose calling range on BB


[/ QUOTE ]

I find this hard to believe. Can someone back this up?

OP, I think it's OK based on your read that BB is a pus...solid player who won't call without a hand.

[Sabrazack]

This is a +EV push if your opponents calls you with no less than 22+,A2+,KQ,KJs. At the 10+1 level i would however more often than not fold this, just too many maniacs that see red when you push into their BB from SB.

[jcm4ccc]

I don't think image and read are the important issue here. I think the important issue is when the blinds go up to 100/200.

To me, at the Party games, that is the critical point of the game. The jump is so huge that you have to prepare for that, in order not to lose significant fold equity.

Also, everytime you push like this (SB in a pretty obvious blind steal) changes your table image and increases the chance that you will be called when you don't want to be called. So you want to be careful about wasting your tight image on a small blind steal. I don't think many party players pay attention to a person's image, EXCEPT someone who is stealing with all-in bets. Everybody notices that.

Having said that:

1. If the blinds go up the very next hand, I would probably take a chance and fold this and push the next hand (if given the opportunity). I know you'll be pushing against the big stack, but even the big stack wants some cards to call your push, ESPECIALLY if this is your first push.

2. If the blinds go up before they hit you again (but not on the very next hand), I would push this. You need to get some chips to survive the 100/200 blinds, and this is a good opportunity. The difference between 885 chips and 1035 chips is pretty big when the blinds are 100/200.

3. If the blinds do not go up before they hit you again, I would not push this. You have about ten hands before you are confronted with the 100/200 blinds. You might get a good hand, you might get better opportunities. I don't want to basically bust out with 54s if I have that much room to play with.

Levels 4, 5 and beyond, you are playing stacks and position more than your cards.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a +EV push if your opponents calls you with no less than 22+,A2+,KQ,KJs. At the 10+1 level i would however more often than not fold this, just too many maniacs that see red when you push into their BB from SB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I always forget to post the buy-in. This was a 22.

I wonder if I should toss moves like this out of my game until I make a jump to the higher levels?

[dmmikkel]

I'd push this regardless of buyin

The chips you earn will give you increased fold eq later.

Remember than a loose bigstack has more fold eq than a tight microstack

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]

3. If the blinds do not go up before they hit you again, I would not push this. You have about ten hands before you are confronted with the 100/200 blinds. You might get a good hand, you might get better opportunities. I don't want to basically bust out with 54s if I have that much room to play with.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just looked at the HH. There were five hands remaining after this one until we hit L5. If I have this right, that would put me UTG at the start of L5. (I suppose that puts me more in line with what you say in point 2.)

I usually spend the first 3 levels waiting for monsters, and identifying people to steal from in levels 4 and 5.

In this particular scenario, seat 4 was a total LAG gambloor, so I wasn't comfortable stealing from him with any 2 on the next hand.

FWIW - According to Harrington's inflection point theory, I have an M of 6 here, which almost puts me in the "red." As soon as the blinds go up, I will be UTG with an M of 3, which is something I like to call "sh¡t city."

[microbet]

I think this is fine as long as BB is not super super loose.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think image and read are the important issue here. I think the important issue is when the blinds go up to 100/200.


[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently this advice is now osbolete

[Dallara]

The BB in this hand (Saden) is a sometimes regular poster on this forum (Benholio) who was probably 8 tabling at the time. Given that info, I would have probably pushed into him without hesitation. I think a good player is more likely to fold here than take a stand with a crap hand. Against an unknown, I probably push here and pray.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
The BB in this hand (Saden) is a sometimes regular poster on this forum (Benholio) who was probably 8 tabling at the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's awesome. (He thought for a minute and then called with 77, btw.)

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[45suited]

I just made the same move on a 22. Blinds 50-100

I had t800 after posting, BB had t840. I pushed with 8Ts (the greatest suckout hand ever).

BB calls with Q9o, wins the hand and says "don't try that crap on me." It was my first push of the tournament.

I think all this talk about play tightening up is way off. I've been noticing for weeks that guys are calling (especially SB open pushes into BB) with all kinds of stuff. I think when pushed into from the SB, alot of these BBs view it as an attack on their manhood or something...

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]

I think all this talk about play tightening up is way off. I've been noticing for weeks that guys are calling (especially SB open pushes into BB) with all kinds of stuff. I think when pushed into from the SB, alot of these BBs view it as an attack on their manhood or something...

[/ QUOTE ]

Something I have not seen discussed- Doesn't this really throw a wrench in the "any 2 will do" mantra?

I mean, "push with any 2, and get called by any 2" doesn't seem to be ideal to me.

[Dallara]

I probably would have folded in his spot. I think this is a leak in my game though. I'm much too willing to pass on coinflips with a medium stack with the idea that I can just pickup blinds later.

[tminus]

Im pushing this because the the stage is set to do so
Foe is tight, blinds are coming around, and his stack is small in relation to yours and the table average. He is most likely not going to have a good calling hand and most likely going to fold.

I wouldnt push, however, if i had done so in the past 3 or 4 hands without showing a serious hand.

I think the generalizations about the 10's calling with anything is silly. Every hand is different and I've run into some tight players.

[45suited]

I'm not going to let it slow me down unless my results start to suffer. So far, I realize that my sample size (the past few weeks) is relatively small.

But I agree with whoever wrote that the calling standards for BBs when pushed from the SB is not even close to what it would be if they are faced with a button push.

I am close to thinking that the "push any two" thing is better from the button than from the SB because of this phenomenon. The looser standards might even more than make up for the fact that you are up against only one player instead of two. Maybe I'm taking that too far, but from what I've seen, BBs are calling SB pushes WAY more than a few months ago.

I wonder if anyone else feels this way?

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]

But I agree with whoever wrote that the calling standards for BBs when pushed from the SB is not even close to what it would be if they are faced with a button push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just so I understand what you are saying here... Do you mean that a push from the button is more likely to make the BB fold? IE- It looks less like a steal than a push from the SB?

[byronkincaid]

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if anyone else feels this way?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of people in the 50s now seem to be calling like they're some wierd mixture of Gus Hanson, Gigabet and some noob $5 player. To be honest my calling standards have dropped dramatically as well. I used to basically never call on the bubble without a monster but if people are pushing with any 2 then hell why not call? But some people are calling with like J high. K high is a monster calling hand now to some people. I'll obviously have to adjust my game, I think maybe loosening up at the earlier levels to try to build up a larger stack, I don't think you get much FE anymore unless you're putting them to a decision for their whole stack.

I have found it to be the perfect time to practise my 8 tabling down in the 20s which if anything seem to be tighter calling wise than they used to be.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
To be honest my calling standards have dropped dramatically as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to admit it, but I was in the BB and called a SB push with QTc the other day. We were level 5, I had t1300 and he had about t700.

He seemed like a good player, and anticipated he would be pushing with any 2. Sure enough it is folded to him, and he pushed. I called, and he showed KJs. (Not quite the 38o I had expected.)

I proceed to catch a Q, and bust him. "Thank God for people like you." he said. "QT? Stupid fish."

So was calling here a donk move? If I assume SB is a good player, and predict he will push with any 2 if folded to him, and sure enough, he pushes- is a call with QTc bad?

(QTc is a top 20% HU hand according to Harrington.)

[The once and future king]

You say you do this to accumulate chips?

However with this hand you dont want a call and are thus just trying to steal the blinds.

Dont see the correlation between your intent and the way you play in this spot.

Edited to add, when I read accumulate chips I read DOUBLE UP.

Whith your stack and the blinds about to go 100/200 you need to do this soon.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
You say you do this to accumulate chips?

[/ QUOTE ]

t150 would add 15%+ to my stack.

Maybe I don't understand your question?

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think image and read are the important issue here. I think the important issue is when the blinds go up to 100/200.


[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently this advice is now osbolete

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Under the new structure I would definitely fold this and do it on the next level instead.

[joeboe2001]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think all this talk about play tightening up is way off. I've been noticing for weeks that guys are calling (especially SB open pushes into BB) with all kinds of stuff. I think when pushed into from the SB, alot of these BBs view it as an attack on their manhood or something...

[/ QUOTE ]

Something I have not seen discussed- Doesn't this really throw a wrench in the "any 2 will do" mantra?

I mean, "push with any 2, and get called by any 2" doesn't seem to be ideal to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad to see you questioning this.

If I were BB I would not see the push as a challenge to my manhood, but it would lower my calling requirements as compared to a raise equal to about half of SB's stack. The push says "I don't want you to call me," and that encourages me (as BB) to call. The smaller raise says "I want to be called" so, unless I have a big pair, I fold.

[joeboe2001]

"I proceed to catch a Q, and bust him. "Thank God for people like you." he said. "QT? Stupid fish." "

There is a classic article around here somewhere about the theory of stealing blinds--you probably know the one I'm talking about. The author would not call you names.

People like this guy need to look at themselves before they open their yaps.

[The once and future king]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You say you do this to accumulate chips?

[/ QUOTE ]

t150 would add 15%+ to my stack.

Maybe I don't understand your question?

[/ QUOTE ]

So going into BB200 with 900 or 1050 makes a big difference, not according to the new theory on the block, which is convienetly called Block theory. Also how much has this improved your fold equity?

You think you have a leak, I think you are just thinking about it the wrong way.

The inevitable fact is that you need confrontation soon to accumulate the chips necessary for end phase play.

Which either means you have to call a hand or raise and be called. When you are raising 45s, I assume you are looking to avoid confrontation and improve your stack the said 15%, as I said thats fine, however It just seemed to me from your original post that you were confusing stealing a blind with looking for a spot to double up which is improving your stack size by an actualy meaningfull 100%.

Of course if you steal enough then you can steal survive to the bubble and then probably ITM if things swing your way. I just wasnt looking at your post in this light as you mentioned that you liked to have a big stack come bubble time.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]

Just so I understand what you are saying here... Do you mean that a push from the button is more likely to make the BB fold? IE- It looks less like a steal than a push from the SB?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do this all the time when the BB is getting testy about blind stealing. A few games ago I was in a MTT with a BB who spitereraised me once or twice. I just started folding my SB and doing the exact same thing from the button...he had no complaints about it and never called me from the button.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
It just seemed to me from your original post that you were confusing stealing a blind with looking for a spot to double up which is improving your stack size by an actualy meaningfull 100%.

[/ QUOTE ]

But here is the thing: the chips I gain now will be TWICE AS MANY when I double through. IE- There is a snowball effect.

I am interested in adding ANY chips I can, for that reason.

Does that make any sense? It's hard to put into words.

[The once and future king]

Yea, Im with you all the way. I get your drift, of course we must take chips wherevewr we can, I just read to much into your original post.

Just 2 thoughts, I often find small stacks more willing to call as they have reached a point of desperation, or are looking for that confrontation I mentioned earlier. Also as regards pushing and calling remember that pushing any 2> calling any 2. Pushing can allways win via a fold. You knew that allready anyway.

Allways remember when reading my posts that I cant play and I talk alot of sh.it.

[Moonsugar]

You have a lot of fold equity when the blinds are bigger, I bet.

[Benholio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The BB in this hand (Saden) is a sometimes regular poster on this forum (Benholio) who was probably 8 tabling at the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's awesome. (He thought for a minute and then called with 77, btw.)

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, thats one of the few tournaments that I moneyed in lately! Thanks for the chips! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Knowing it is me in the BB, you should definately push. 77 was pretty close to the bottom of my calling range, unless I read you for a solid player.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
Knowing it is me in the BB, you should definately push. 77 was pretty close to the bottom of my calling range, unless I read you for a solid player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hah.

I should tell you that I had targeted you as a prime stealing target early on, becase of how tight you had been.

I think you were on the fence with the call, because you took a bit of time before calling.

Out of curiosity- if you knew I was a strong player, would you tighten your calling requirements, or loosen them up?

IE- As a "good" player, would you expect me to be pushing any 2, or pushing say, 99+?

[lastchance]

As a good player against a good player, you definitely expect people to push more, and therefore, you're calling more.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Just so I understand what you are saying here... Do you mean that a push from the button is more likely to make the BB fold? IE- It looks less like a steal than a push from the SB?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly what I'm saying. In fact, if I have utter junk, I might start becoming more likely to push with it from the button that from the SB for this very reason. The typical BB seems to have little problem folding to a button push. I think that this offsets the fact that you are going up against two hands from the button as opposed to one hand from the SB. I'm going to go with this approach for a while and perhaps report on my results after a couple hundred games. Basically, I'll be more willing to fold from the SB and more willing to push from the button. An added bonus of my SB folds will be my increased FE for my button pushes (if my opponents are paying attention). Maybe my idea is just stupid, but we'll see....

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe my idea is just stupid, but we'll see....

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it just worked beautifully for me in a $50, so let's just keep this "our little secret."

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Benholio]

[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiosity- if you knew I was a strong player, would you tighten your calling requirements, or loosen them up?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I tag you as a '2p2 type' player, I put you on a very loose range when you're in a stealing spot. When you are stealing from SB, I will call pretty liberally. Stealing from the BB I give you a little respect.

[45suited]

But we really should come up with a name for it...

Can't you just see, in a few weeks, every other post will say, "Is this the right time for the "Octaveshift Suited"? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif Maybe "OSS" for short.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]

Stealing from the BB I give you a little respect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you consider a push over a SB limp from the BB a steal?

Another move I make a lot. I think it is decidedly +EV. Except for few times I run into limped AA, and then I just use the ol' luckbox.

[lastchance]

Ditto.