This is a terrible misuse of TT, right?

[Karak567]

***** Hand History for Game 2219538267 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:13166162 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Friday, June 17, 02:51:48 EDT 2005
Table Table 11563 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: em_ERIC_ ( $755 )
Seat 2: JimmyTheBlac ( $1165 )
Seat 3: mignots ( $770 )
Seat 4: ToddDavis5 ( $860 )
Seat 5: phoebe1208 ( $515 )
Seat 6: DRUNKENBLUFF ( $530 )
Seat 7: sepher28 ( $800 )
Seat 8: wppi98 ( $700 )
Seat 9: kahnootson40 ( $755 )
Seat 10: Crosser007 ( $1150 )
Trny:13166162 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to sepher28 [ Td Ts ]
DRUNKENBLUFF folds.
sepher28 calls [15].
wppi98 calls [15].
kahnootson40 calls [15].
Crosser007 folds.
em_ERIC_ folds.
JimmyTheBlac folds.
mignots raises [65].
ToddDavis5 folds.
phoebe1208 calls [50].
sepher28 calls [50].
wppi98 calls [50].
kahnootson40 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3h, 4d, 9c ]
phoebe1208 bets [125].
sepher28 is all-In [735]

[microbet]

I don't know. It's a good flop for you, but it smells like you are beat and I'm not just saying that because you posted it.

[Myst]

It is a good flop, but with so many players behind you, with one of them raising, I dont know if I would go all in with TT just yet.. Your in a horrible spot b/c you are between the original raiser and the flop bettor. Id probably fold and find a better spot.

If unsure, fold. You can always steal with 73o later.

[Jason Strasser]

If you are going to get called by lots of worse hands, fine. But against decent players you arent really going to.

-Jason

[pokerlaw]

I fold here PF (to the RR, the limp is fine). The RR could be AK-AQ or so, but as/more likely, it is an overpair. This flop sucks for you in that instance. I have seen 7 high flops where 88 pushes, only to be called by JJ-AA - with this many callers of the RR, i feel that this is one of those times.

[hansarnic]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold here PF (to the RR, the limp is fine).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's not good advice. If he bumped it to 100 then sure, let it go, but calling 50 is fine. You also know that by calling yourself you will almost alwaws bring the other limpers into the pot too.

This is important as it creates a pot size that will give you a much better chance of stacking someone if you spike your set which dramatically improves your implied odds.

So you;re gtting everything you need to play this hand purely for its set value (which given your position is probably how you should approach the flop).

[wiggs73]

If it were just you and one more opp., I don't think it's a bad play. However, with the pre-flop raiser still waiting to act, I think it's a much more risky move. You could easily be up against an over-pair to your tens.

I'm not too worried about the bettor on the flop. I don't see him playing a larger pair than yours that way pre-flop and i don't see him leading a set this way post-flop. I'd likely put him on A9s or 66-88.

However, with 2 people left to act behind me, one of which took the lead pre-flop with a raise, I'm not sure what I would do. I think this might be one of the few times I'll ever advocate a min-raise. But I think a min-raise will be enough to push out hands behind you that you beat but don't want around, like 2 broadway cards, but enough to keep in the bettor, who you likely are ahead of.

If the min-raise results in 2 folds and a call, if he checks the turn, I push it there most of the time. If he pushes the turn, then it's a tough decision. If I get called or raised behind after the min-raise by someone other than the initial bettor, I'm pretty much done with the hand.

[Phill S]

Whoever said fold preflop, he is an idiot. Anyway, weak tight bashing over, lets move on.

The flop, whilst not bad for you, isnt great. Like someone has already pointed out, the origional preflop raiser is still behind you. Your between a rock and a hard place.

Furthermore, the flop is very uncoordinated. Its a bet of 125 into a 260 pot. What do you put her on? 349 rainbow doesnt scream draw happy - No flush draw, 56 or 25, calling that raise? I dont think so.

The most likely answer is top pair, prolly Q9+. With no flush draw, no one bets out a set, and two pair isnt too likely.

But i neither call nor raise.

Why not? Well, for one i have a limper and raiser behind me. I have no idea where im at with them. This is still really early. You cant win the game here, but you sure can lose it. Accept that its a tough spot, and when your in a tough spot with no clear answer, this early on you should be playing in low gear. Fold.

Phill

[string4]

*in the dark, critique welcome*

my decision factors:
- OOP, especially in relation to preflop raiser
- player in front of you invests 1/4 of her stack with others to come - looks like she's fishing for reraise
- Lvl 1 in tourney - "avoid marginal situations"

Fold. Pick a better battle, later.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
Whoever said fold preflop, he is an idiot. Anyway, weak tight bashing over, lets move on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, that person is a weak/tight moron, whereas you advocate folding an overpair to a 1/2 pot bet from the BB, who will do this with A9-T9 - hands that are reasonably realistic considering that she's calling from the BB into a somewhat bloated PF pot - with great frequency. Of course.

I don't mind the push. Better hands will not fold, depending on how your table is various 9's or 88 might call, particularly since the pot is already pretty substantial. However, in this instance I don't mind so much if worse hands fold. I'm perfectly happy trying to take this pot down right now, when my hand is probably best, because I'm not thrilled about seeing a 9 or any overcards to the board coming. If my stack was deeper I might try and extract more chips here, but even a minraise is 1/3 of my stack here, and just calling is too likely to draw another caller that I don't really want. So I push.

[adanthar]

When you push, you lose 735 chips when you lose and win 375 when you win. Hint: put the PF raiser on a range*.

*I am not suggesting it's a bad push at this limit. It's a horrible push in the 109's.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
When you push, you lose 735 chips when you lose and win 375 when you win. Hint: put the PF raiser on a range*.

[/ QUOTE ]

Winning 375 when I win assumes that I can't get called by a 9 here, which I don't think is true. Also, not playing the Party 30s I don't have a good sense of what the default range should be, and it's still Level 1 so it's hard to have a good sense. If I've played with the guy before and he's kind of tight, then yes, he's going to have 99 or JJ+ here way too often for this to be a correct move. However, I also think that it's very believable that he could be making this raise PF with a range like 77-AA, AK-AT, KQ, in which case he presumably folds everything but 99 and the overpairs, meaning we get called 28 times and he folds 78 times, which is obviously profitable even ignoring the times BB calls us with a 9. I'm neglecting the possibility that BB actually has a big hand here, but since it seems likely that BB might have reraised given the limp-happiness PF I don't think that's a bad assumption. (EDIT: And if BB hit a set, then nice hand.)

[ QUOTE ]

*I am not suggesting it's a bad push at this limit. It's a horrible push in the 109's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I bet that's true.

[Unarmed]

If you have any respect for BB you need to fold this.