Hi! I'm Weak Tight

[Firefly]

I think this hand is somewhat interesting. Main villans were in the 35/8 kinda range.. nothing too spectacular.
PF- Cap for value?
Flop- What's my line? (not the one that i took)
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (15.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, BB folds, Hero folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (12.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Button calls, MP2 calls.

River: (15.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Button calls, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 17.25 BB

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
PF- Cap for value?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop- What's my line? (not the one that i took)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your line is excellent. Surely you're not advocating calling 3 cold back to you? I don't see what leading this flop accomplishes either.

[deepsquat]

there is nothing wrong with this fold. You are probably behind to a queen and you have only 1 clean out, No-one could call 3 cold here and tell me its +EV

[TomBrooks]

PF- Cap for value? NO
Flop- What's my line? (not the one that i took) WHY NOT? YOU TOOK THE ONLY HALFWAY SENSIBLE LINE I CAN THINK OF.

[bottomset]

uh you are drawing dead here the majority of the time

[AlmightyJay]

Looks fine to me.

[Deamon2]

[ QUOTE ]
uh you are drawing dead here the majority of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

more likely near dead with 9 cards that redraw against you. just to clarify /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
uh you are drawing dead here the majority of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

more likely near dead with 9 cards that redraw against you. just to clarify /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

if there is someone with a Q, and someone else or the player with a /images/graemlins/club.gif then you have 1out

but i'm pretty sure the button has the flush already

[Deamon2]

no argument there, I was just messing around

[Sinnister]

Nothing weak tight here, JJ is not a cap hand. checking the flop is good here so is the fold, though i probably wouldve bet it out

[istewart]

Yes, with 3 others in you can probably cap for value.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
JJ is not a cap hand

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif please explain yourself, this is weaksauce

[Dave G.]

I don't generally agree with capping JJ either. There's a significant chance of being outflopped, and then there's the possibility of being up against a bigger pair too. It's a strong hand still, but not something I want to build a mountain of a pot ontop of.

Maybe that's a bit weak, but I'm not comfortable building a massive pot with a hand that stands a decent chance of being ruined at some point.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't generally agree with capping JJ either. There's a significant chance of being outflopped, and then there's the possibility of being up against a bigger pair too. It's a strong hand still, but not something I want to build a mountain of a pot ontop of.

Maybe that's a bit weak, but I'm not comfortable building a massive pot with a hand that stands a decent chance of being ruined at some point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it's a bit weak. Consider the following:

1) Does *NOT* capping change the dynamics of the hand very much? If it does, is it in your favor or against you?

2) Does not building a massive pot change the chances of your hand being ruined at some point?

3) How does the fact that there are extra players in the hand (with hands almost certainly worse than yours) hanging around affect your decision?

[Dave G.]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, it's a bit weak. Consider the following:

1) Does *NOT* capping change the dynamics of the hand very much? If it does, is it in your favor or against you?

2) Does not building a massive pot change the chances of your hand being ruined at some point?

3) How does the fact that there are extra players in the hand (with hands almost certainly worse than yours) hanging around affect your decision?

[/ QUOTE ]

All good points. I understand what you're saying, so I took a shot at giving some answers.

1) Not capping means you don't take the initiative on the flop, which means you'll probably get bet into. This can be for you or against you. For you: You don't give away your hand, and if the 3-bettor is behind you and you flop a set or overpair, you can easily trap the field for extra bets. Against you: People are less likely to back off to your aggression and more likely to hang around to draw out on you.

2) No, but it affects the odds that many of the hands that will ruin you have to keep chasing that gutshot or 2 outer, forcing them to make a bigger mistake by chasing. With a smaller pot, they may either chase incorrectly, or not chase at all, which improves both your value and your chances of winning.

3) This improves our value, but only in preflop expectation. Postflop, those hands which were calling our raises with much the worst of it may have hit the flop hard, or even soft (they can then hit the turn or river). With many such hands against us, their combined equity postflop can lower our postflop equity significantly, especially since any half-baked draw will have odds to see the turn and probably the river too.

So in conclusion: You're probably correct that not capping is giving up some value from bad hands, but JJ is still not a hand I'm wanting to back with everything.

[BruinEric]

I bet/fold the flop here a bit more than half the time depending on table texture. On some tables where a flop re-raise against a pre-flop raiser and post-flop bettor means a big hand, this gives me more information than when someone bets out because I checked.

With less players and on tight tables, I bet out almost all the time. The scare cards might knock out even a weak Q.

Of course, your ck/fold on the flop saved that half bet and you didn't need to bet to get "information" that several players "loved" their hand. You're surely behind to a Q, an overpair, and perhaps a made flush, so game over.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't generally agree with capping JJ either. There's a significant chance of being outflopped, and then there's the possibility of being up against a bigger pair too. It's a strong hand still, but not something I want to build a mountain of a pot ontop of.

Maybe that's a bit weak, but I'm not comfortable building a massive pot with a hand that stands a decent chance of being ruined at some point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you cap AK?

[Dave G.]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you cap AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

AKo? No. AKs? Yes. The suited potential gives me that extra bit of edge that I need to confidently push for value, even if I suspect I'm up against a big pair.

[AlmightyJay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
JJ is not a cap hand

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif please explain yourself, this is weaksauce

[/ QUOTE ]

But Ed Miller doesn't cap it!!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I usually cap JJ. I didn't notice that the OP didn't.

[jrz1972]

I usually go ahead and cap preflop, especially against somebody with an 8% PFR. If I'm 3-bet by somebody with a 4% PFR, I refrain from capping. I doubt it's really that big a deal whether Hero caps on this particular hand.

This a very, very easy flop fold. You can't seriously be considering calling three cold with your underpair, can you?

[irishpint]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would you cap AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

AKo? No. AKs? Yes. The suited potential gives me that extra bit of edge that I need to confidently push for value, even if I suspect I'm up against a big pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

you best be capping AKo

[Dave G.]

[ QUOTE ]
you best be capping AKo

[/ QUOTE ]

What 3-betting hands am I in front of with AKo that makes me want to build the pot more? AQo is the only one I can think of. Not a very wide range of hands. Not being soooted, my multiway draw value is also limited.

[irishpint]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you best be capping AKo

[/ QUOTE ]

What 3-betting hands am I in front of with AKo that makes me want to build the pot more? AQo is the only one I can think of. Not a very wide range of hands. Not being soooted, my multiway draw value is also limited.

[/ QUOTE ]

3betting hands we're ahead of OR will outdraw, especially in a hand with more than one opponent...
TT,JJ,QQ (while technically behind now, we can easily come from behind. technically we're behind 22 now also), KK we have 3 outs, AA we're in some trouble. AQ, AJ we're good. I suppose this is read dependant, if you *know* your opponent only 3bets with AA then we can probably call (or fold!). However against an unknown 3bet I cap with AKo.

[Firefly]

I was absolutely not calling /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
I was just wondering if i should have fired on the flop. (If i had the Jc i probally would have) At the time i wanted to check and evaluate the action which clearly indicated a fold.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
JJ is not a cap hand

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif please explain yourself, this is weaksauce

[/ QUOTE ]

But Ed Miller doesn't cap it!!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I usually cap JJ. I didn't notice that the OP didn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

boo, its not an always cap hand, but saying its not a cap hand without any form of reasoning is not the way to think about poker decisions

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you best be capping AKo

[/ QUOTE ]What 3-betting hands am I in front of with AKo that makes me want to build the pot more? AQo is the only one I can think of. Not a very wide range of hands. Not being soooted, my multiway draw value is also limited.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even assuming your opponent would only 3-bet with AK/AQs/AA/KK/QQ/JJ (and this is conservative), this gives:

Ahead:
AQs(3)

Behind:
AA(3)
KK(3)

Coinflip/tied:
AK(9)
QQ(6)
JJ(6)

So 3 hands we are ahead of, 9 we are splitting with, 6 we are behind and 12 we are a coinflip with. When we are ahead, splitting, or a coinflip (24/30 hands), we almost always have a huge edge on the other 3 players and probably around 40% of the pot equity. When behind we are drawing nearly dead (although we still have a 30% chance against kings). With all of the dead money going in I would raise for value here.

[Dave G.]

Hmm okay, thanks for the insights. I can see the point of reraising with a few other people in the pot donking along with crap. I'll add it to my game.

[AmarilloJim1]

Nice hand. I don't think that JJ is a cap hand. If you 3-Bet it's nice to see if someone caps to gain info; however, I don't think capping JJ is +ev without a great read.