Playing the $11's vs the $215's

[lastchance]

Inspired by splitting the forum up, there are a few considerations to be made based on level, and while much of the advice here is good, and some of it really asks for level, there's definitely a few things you need to think about and change when a higher-limit player gives you advice.

1) When opponents show strength early in L1-L3, especially calling an all-in, do not treat this like a $215. What I mean here is with AA on K92 rainbow board, and there is a bet and a raise all-in in front of you, you should be calling almost 100% of the time at the low-limits without a read. At the $215, calling this is questionable, at least.

2) Don't make any 2 pushes on the bubble. Most of this forum reads, "Push, Push, Push." There's a lot of posts on exploiting the bubble with a big stack and people that are tight there with constant pushing. Don't do this at the $11's. You're getting called, a lot, unless you have strong reads on tight players trying to squeak ITM.

3) Expect very high pushing ranges. At the $11's, you need to be able to realize that when opponents are pushing, it's because they have a good hand, not because they are trying to steal the blinds most of the time. If they didn't have a good hand, they would have limped instead.

4) Treat minraises with respect. Again, unless you're up against a known minraise-bluffer, you need to realize that if they're minraising, they didn't check or call. This means they have second pair or something that really isn't good, but you shouldn't try to steal the pot, because, you're getting called.

5) Don't PVS. People limp good hands as well as bad, and against most opponents, you will get called a lot of the time raising into a field of limpers.

6) Your FE is indirectly related to the number of pushes you have made so far. While a tight player is not getting noticed, especially at a large table, after a while, the people on the right of you are going to notice that you push, a lot. They don't like you bullying them, and so they will call, with a very wide range of hands. Bullying is really not rewarded at the $11's.

7) Opponents generally play the game the same with the same stack-sizes. A tight opponent is not loosening up on you a lot with a huge stack and you pushing with a smaller one like 2+2ers will. A loose opponent is certainly not tightening up when you have them covered.

To sum up most of these concepts, especially the ones about the bubble, realize that your objective is not to gain a lot of chips here on the bubble. It's not easy to gain a big stack at the $11's simply by blind-stealing because of the factors above. Instead, what you need to be able to do is to try to keep a solid stack as long as possible by choosing your spots wisely, and getting the blinds every round or so. Be very careful with your stealing, as a steal now will decrease your FE later.

However, your ROI is great at the $11's, primarily because you'll consistenly have people bust earlier than they should. Being able to survive L5 should be able to consistenly place you ITM.

But it's kind of a different spot playing a short-handed game with high blinds. I'm not good at it at all, and that's a pretty big leak at the $11's. (note this last paragraph, it tells you a lot)

Remember, your ROI at the $11's is high not because you play as good as Curtainz or Adanthar. Your ROI is high because your opponents suck, a lot.

[TStokes]

nice post some good advice there

[pergesu]

These are good general guidelines, but as with anything else in poker, they shouldn't be treated as hard-and-fast rules.

There are plenty of times when you can push any two. I'm probably way more push-happy than most would advocate at the $22s, but I've done well with it so far. I'm also a super lucky player /images/graemlins/smile.gif

People will say that the PVS is fast becoming one of the most misunderstood and misused fad plays, but I've enjoyed a lot of success with it over my last 500 tourneys. I obviously haven't done it in all of them, maybe only 15% or so, but I'm sure that's a lot higher than most people would expect. I'm not gonna say I've perfected it, but I do think I've got a solid grasp on it and have been able to put it to good use.

Despite the rep that low buyin games have as being filled with people who will call with anything, I think there's still plenty of room to employ the tactics that are suggested in most threads. Otherwise they wouldn't ever be suggested in the first place. I don't really know how my games compare to the $215s...I know that I probably have to be more selective, but give me a table full of $22ers instead of $215ers any day.

[Freudian]

Yeah, it was a bit exaggerated on all counts. But the general idea was that you shouldn't get all too fancy at the $11s. That is pretty good advice.

But you can definately push limpers off hands and steal a lot of blinds at the lower limits. Just pick the right spots.

[yoadrians]

[ QUOTE ]
Inspired by splitting the forum up, there are a few considerations to be made based on level, and while much of the advice here is good, and some of it really asks for level, there's definitely a few things you need to think about and change when a higher-limit player gives you advice.

1) When opponents show strength early in L1-L3, especially calling an all-in, do not treat this like a $215. What I mean here is with AA on K92 rainbow board, and there is a bet and a raise all-in in front of you, you should be calling almost 100% of the time at the low-limits without a read. At the $215, calling this is questionable, at least.

2) Don't make any 2 pushes on the bubble. Most of this forum reads, "Push, Push, Push." There's a lot of posts on exploiting the bubble with a big stack and people that are tight there with constant pushing. Don't do this at the $11's. You're getting called, a lot, unless you have strong reads on tight players trying to squeak ITM.

3) Expect very high pushing ranges. At the $11's, you need to be able to realize that when opponents are pushing, it's because they have a good hand, not because they are trying to steal the blinds most of the time. If they didn't have a good hand, they would have limped instead.

4) Treat minraises with respect. Again, unless you're up against a known minraise-bluffer, you need to realize that if they're minraising, they didn't check or call. This means they have second pair or something that really isn't good, but you shouldn't try to steal the pot, because, you're getting called.

5) Don't PVS. People limp good hands as well as bad, and against most opponents, you will get called a lot of the time raising into a field of limpers.

6) Your FE is indirectly related to the number of pushes you have made so far. While a tight player is not getting noticed, especially at a large table, after a while, the people on the right of you are going to notice that you push, a lot. They don't like you bullying them, and so they will call, with a very wide range of hands. Bullying is really not rewarded at the $11's.

7) Opponents generally play the game the same with the same stack-sizes. A tight opponent is not loosening up on you a lot with a huge stack and you pushing with a smaller one like 2+2ers will. A loose opponent is certainly not tightening up when you have them covered.

To sum up most of these concepts, especially the ones about the bubble, realize that your objective is not to gain a lot of chips here on the bubble. It's not easy to gain a big stack at the $11's simply by blind-stealing because of the factors above. Instead, what you need to be able to do is to try to keep a solid stack as long as possible by choosing your spots wisely, and getting the blinds every round or so. Be very careful with your stealing, as a steal now will decrease your FE later.

However, your ROI is great at the $11's, primarily because you'll consistenly have people bust earlier than they should. Being able to survive L5 should be able to consistenly place you ITM.

But it's kind of a different spot playing a short-handed game with high blinds. I'm not good at it at all, and that's a pretty big leak at the $11's. (note this last paragraph, it tells you a lot)

Remember, your ROI at the $11's is high not because you play as good as Curtainz or Adanthar. Your ROI is high because your opponents suck, a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

LastChance - Fantastic post. Due to several constraints - i.e. full-time job at newspaper, wife, 9-month-old - I haven't had the time to build a solid enough roll to play at levels higher than the 20s.

For others at the 5.50s, 11s and 22s, this is fantastic advice. Very, very well-done, and thanks again for your time.

[astarck]

[ QUOTE ]
There are plenty of times when you can push any two. I'm probably way more push-happy than most would advocate at the $22s, but I've done well with it so far.

[/ QUOTE ]

I too push most any two and am very push-happy. (I also have found I do well with it.) I find even at the 11-33s people are often just trying to survive until the money.

You do need to know who to push against at these levels as there will always be "That guy" who will call you with any two because you've been pushing a lot lately. But I agree, you CAN push most any two on the bubble without fear of getting called very often.

[durron597]

There is a more general concept that is being missed here. Poker is all about adjusting to your opponents and the current situations and your current cards. All of these things must be taken into consideration when making a decision in a poker game.

lastchance gives good guidlines for *facing typical opponents* in *typical situations* in a $10+$1. Your opponents in general will not be tricky, or they will be much too tricky/tricky in obvious ways etc. There have been situations in SnGs at $10+$1 where I have PVSed because I knew my opponents were limping with garbage and raising with their good hands because I was adjusting. There have been other SnGs where I folded KJo on the button after 3 limpers in level 4 because I knew that I was probably dominated against these specific opponents limping - and this is at the *same level* but different players.

AleoMagus's guide to the $10+$1 is good as a rule of thumb. Making decisions purely based on stack sizes, buyin, and your cards is not using every piece of information and will not maximize your ROI. I'm not talking about stuff like Gigabet's post - that stuff really isn't all that important until you are in a SnG against all top players - and even then it only comes up rarely. Also the rules are very useful for coming up with general plans for playing against opponents before you've had a chance to develop a read on them.... but you can learn a lot from the opponent very quickly who cold calls raises preflop twice and folds on the flop in the first two hands, an opponent who limps the first 4 hands, an opponent who raises big the first 3 hands, etc, an opponent who plays 2 hands in the first three levels.

Here is a great situation where paying attention to your opponent and buyin level is important. (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=913087&page=&view=&sb =5&o=&vc=1) I would not recommend making this call at a $10+$1 table.

I hope my thoughts make sense and give a sense of perspective for those players who think every decision is absolute and easy "should I fold two pair, I should have know him raising meant a set!" Make sure you factor your reads into a decision to fold two pair and only use the guidelines as what they are when you haven't been paying attention, it's early, or you're just not sure.

[lastchance]

Definitely, I am in total agreement. At the $11's, it is very easy to get reads on players.

Again, this is for typical opponents at typical $11 buy-in's.

Note: By PVS, I mean "push with any 2" out of the blinds, which I definitely think is not a profitable play against typical opponents.

This also helps on what to look for. Instead of looking for good players and taking notes on everyone, you use the average $11 player and take notes on people who are playing outside the LP fish norm.

[pokerlaw]

Nice post. some of my obervations over my 300 or so games of t1500 stack poker (non-turbo):

- Biggest tell to look for: Players that bet their hand. Meaning, when they bet the pot, they have a good/prob best hand and when they bet 1/2 or less, a RR will get them to muck b/c either they are bluffing, or they just don't like their hand enough to call.

- Great point about the players playing the same regardless of their stack size.

- All-ins have a lower folding equity than a standard size RR in a lot of situations (curiosity killed the fish?). I use that both ways - nothing like seeing a cheap turn, hitting the st8, and getting top pair to call the push on L2.

- A lot of the players who are tight early on are still tight later when they should be switching to a looser strategy. Steal their blinds and bluff them. These players are usually the among the ones that bet their hands. Respect their raises. Bet them out of the hand if they check to you.

[Blarg]

This is one of the best, most useful posts for the low level players I've seen. Excellent job.

I've often seen my returns suffer for trying to improve my game by incorporating advice from higher level players, few of whom seem to have a deeper recollection of the 10's than that they sucked and were easy to beat. So advice is transferred over whole which often simply doesn't apply and can even be working against you.

Doing a lot of stealing on the bubble, even with any two, is one of the primary examples. As you note, people in the 11's love to call, and aren't nearly as intimidated either by big stacks or by the thought of losing in general; further, if you have been doing much pushing, you'll get a ton of spite calls. Which you may win, but the idea behind pushing to steal the blinds is often intimately bound up with the idea that your opponents will take into account and even put great store in factors like stack sizes, blind sizes, reads on players, the size of the pot, and even the desire to last this thing out into the money. But -- very often they simply don't take those things into account or just don't care. They want to play! Hell yeah!

You can't intimidate someone into folding a hand he's LOOKING FORWARD to calling with, just for some action, for some payback, because he's mad at some other guy he's pretty sure bluffed him off his blinds last time, because "nobody steals my blinds," or because he doesn't realize that "any queen" isn't really that great a calling hand, especially not to lose his whole stack over.

This is common to all forms of poker. You can't necessarily use more advanced strategies on people who aren't even paying attention, or who play wildly, emotionally, or even without a consistent style at all. You have to play in a way that takes those tendencies into account, not in a way that ignores them or functions successfully on the basis that people aren't playing that way at all.

Your stealing attempts will often be called, so you can steal more often -- but not with any two while figuring people are timid and will fold or will surmise correctly that, all things considered, a fold is the wise play. You can attempt steals for the opposite reason, but you need better hands to do it: you will actually be getting called a fair bit with terrible hands, and you expect your steal attempts to go to showdown. Your 44 or K8 will get called by J9 and you'll double up because people can't let go of their hands. The scary part is not whether someone will call or not, like when you're playing against better players and pushing "any two," but when they inevitably call and you see if the showdown value of your hand stands up. Considering what they're calling with, it often will.

The shoe is on the other foot. It's not about pushing with any two, it's about the fact that so many people will call off their entire stack with what might as well be any two.

Folding equity functions differently in the 11's, since people aren't scared of your stack size and are so willing to gamble with their own. Accumulating extra chips is never a bad thing, but some of the value of doing so in the lowest level games comes not from establishing greater folding equity by virtue of having an intimidating stack size, but for the value of your chips in letting you sit back for a longer time while people destroy themselves. Playing purely for survival will never get you much more than 3rd place, but the ways to get better than third, in the lower levels, are going to involve seeing a lot more showdowns than people used to higher levels see. You'll still have to steal, but your cards are going to have to stand up, to do it. K8 UTG will sometimes be more valuable than 82 on the button.

People at the low levels want to PLAY, so expect the showdowns. Pushing people off hands isn't the joy it is in higher levels, because they're not leaving. Be prepared to see how your 8-2 offsuit comes out at the river. And in contrast to higher level games where people argue over whether AJ is high enough to call with given an opponent's likely pushing range, expect to see people calling with J9 and your K8 holding up, because it's not going to be bumping into AJ nearly as often.

[gildwulf]

Bump. I added this to my favorite threads.

[Angelic_Ace]

Excellent thread - I haven't been performing as well as I used to on 11s and 22s lately, and I think a big part of it is reading the advanced posts here and thinking that I need to keep making my play more complex. This might be the product of a restless mind that has figured out how to grind out 30% ROI at those levels and is trying to get 'too cute'. I just need to 'keep it real' until I get enough buyins to move up to 50's (I'm planning on skipping the 30s).