What do I do about this trap ?

[mark76g]

Hi,

This is a trap I've been lured into a few times now and I'm getting sick of it.

I get dealt a big pair and raise the pot. Most people fold except for 1 or 2 players who call. The flop comes in a way which looks really good for me. Mabey I've got KK and the board comes 10, 7, 4 offsuit for example. I bet the pot and then get raised for the rest of my stack. I go all in. The other guy turns over bottom two pair 77s and 4s and Ive just made a really bad bet.

The players who bring junk along to the flop are not stupid they only do it against me. They know that when I raise before the flop that I have some kind of good hand (a Medium to big Pair, AK suited etc). They bring their junk to the flop knowing that if the two pair come up then I will never suspect it and they will get the rest of my money. They take bad odds pre flop because of the big pay off they will get if they do hit.

Say for instance they try their luck with J4 the flop comes (J84 offsuite) and they end up with a pair of jacks they will come stright out and bet. If I raise back they fold and only lose a small amount. But if instead they have made Jacks and fours then when I raise back they call or reraise and now I'm really getting the worst of it.

Its really hard to throw away AA or KK when the board is blank. But what can I do ?

[sam h]

these are tough situations to be in, but thats what makes big bet poker both exciting and lucrative for those who are good at it. here are some suggestions, although i am somewhat of a novice myself.

"The players who bring junk along to the flop are not stupid they only do it against me. They know that when I raise before the flop that I have some kind of good hand"

This is a big part of your problem. PL and NL are just different from limit. Predictability is what will kill you. Try raising with some suited connectors, especially in late position. Or limp early with aces and see if you can either make a big reraise or trap somebody who clearly has only top pair. And note that these players who keep taking your stack are certainly not stupid. Its little cards that get the money in PL and NL, especially when the stacks are deep.

"Its really hard to throw away AA or KK when the board is blank. But what can I do ?"

Sometimes this is exactly what you have to do. If you are playing live, then you have to make good reads based on the players you are with. The internet is obviously tougher, but the stacks will be smaller. Also, don´t play into your opponents´ strategy by making small preflop raises with big pairs to get action. Be cognizant of their stack sizes and try to make them play badly by calling for a higher percentage of their stack than their implied odds justifies.

Finally, look for players who are making the same predictable raises with big pairs, get a seat to their left to have position on them, and start playing some small pairs and suited connectors against them.

[MD_]

Sam's advice is good. Don't be confused when he says that "Its little cards that get the money in PL and NL." He's not talking about the J4o that your opponents play. He's talking about 67s in late position. When the stacks are fairly deep (50xBB or more), go ahead and call a 3xBB raise with a hand like that. WIth Aces and Kings you should try limp-raising early (but only if you regularly limp with suited connectors early) and raising fairly large late. By fairly large, I mean the largest amount that will likely be called. Of course, if there's an agressive player behind you and you think it will work, try raising an amount that he will re-raise (then you come over the top). The bottom line is, you don't want to be raising just 3xBB when you have 50xBB in your stack. It's just too easy for somebody to play the way you said. They're essentially getting 16:1 on their money because if they hit, they know they'll get paid off.

-MD

[Ray Zee]

if thats what they truly are doing you will bust them all even if you play your big pair that way and go all in everytime they do get you. as long as your stack isnt way too big and i dont think it is by your post. but maybe its time for you to learn to play your hands in different ways so they cant outplay you in their minds.

[Diplomat]

I agree with MD. As you may notice from my own post (ahem), I tend to bet amounts not sufficient to knock people around. But more specifically, had the Button in my had made a bigger raise -- say, 6-10 times the BB -- he would have won the hand. Instead his raise of 2x the BB let me and the BB come along, and subsequently busted him out of the game.

That's what I love about N/L -- the smallest mistake...

As for the limp re-raise, one thing I would like to note is that your re-raise has to be big...at least big enough to take it right there, or at least to blow out all hands with a chance of catching up (like MD's 67s, etc.).

Best of luck in your future N/L games.

-Peter

[mark76g]

Hi,

So are you saying that my play is ok ?
What sort of stack size would I have to have in front of me to make their 10 unit call worth while ?

[MD_]

You would BOTH need to have AT LEAST 100 units to make their 10 unit call worthwhile (more for some of the trash you said they play).

-MD

[mark76g]

It is as I feared then. My stack size in all cases was at least 100 units. 150 in some cases.

It's just a really hard thing to fold the big pair on blank flop.

[John Ho]

Well, the first thing you have going for you is that you have caught on to their strategy. Many people would just curse their bad luck and hope their luck turns.

One alternative is to play smaller pots. If you raise with a big pair and get a flop you like try betting a smaller amount of the pot. Say double your preflop bet or something like that. By keeping the pot small you are less likely to go bust on your pair. However, you must realize that if your opponent makes a massive reraise you will still have the same decision about whether to call.

A better alternative is to mix up your play a little. Raise the same amount with more hands and bet the same amount you would with a big overpair even if you flop nothing. This way, your opponents will fold more often than they should (let's say they flop a pair and fold because they put you on an overpair). In the long run you will win a lot more of those small pots which will help if you get outflopped with a big pair and can't get away from it. Another great this is that if you raise with J-10 suited and get a called with J-4 you may see a flop like J-10-4 or JJx which will make you a huge favorite.

Basically, mix it up. No limit poker is not the game to be predictable. If you can't change your style you should stick to limit.