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NoBrains

06-16-2005, 05:35 PM

I’m always second guessing myself when it comes to playing JJ OOP. I’m thinking that my PF re-raise was a little to small, but didn’t want to push the pot up to high. Any thoughts are appreciated.

Early, no read on UTG+2, MP1 showed a solid hand, BB is playing loose.

11’s … Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t975)
Hero (t800)
MP3 (t785)
CO (t770)
Button (t1045)
SB (t570)
BB (t640)
UTG (t860)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t755)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 raises to t30, MP1 calls t30, Hero raises to t90, 4 folds, BB calls t75, UTG+2 calls t60, MP1 calls t60.

Flop: (t370) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)

ok, I land a nice set on this flop, but it’s all clubs. I think I have two choices, whimp out and call this down, or try and take it here…

BB bets t15, UTG+2 calls t15, MP1 folds, Hero raises to t710 (All-In), BB calls t535 (All-In), UTG+2 folds.

the_joker

06-16-2005, 05:41 PM

Seems ok to me.

gildwulf

06-16-2005, 05:45 PM

I would probably just call preflop and reraise/push on the flop. Looks good though.

Z

p.s. there is NO way you are laying this down on the flop at the 10+1s.

pineapple888

06-16-2005, 06:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I’m thinking that my PF re-raise was a little to small

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it was. I shove at least 150 out there. You could argue for a limp, I suppose, but a small raise is the worst of all.

[ QUOTE ]
but didn’t want to push the pot up too high

[/ QUOTE ]

For some reason, I've been seeing this idea pop up recently, and it's wrong, wrong, wrong.

1.) You WANT the pot high. You have the fourth-best starting hand!

2.) The other reason to raise it up is to knock out drawing hands. Your Jacks get progressively more vulnerable as more people join the pot. Ideally, you want to get heads-up whenever you have pocket queens, jacks, or tens.

With a substantial raise, you will accomplish one or both of these goals. With a wimpy raise, you won't accomplish either.
[ QUOTE ]
ok, I land a nice set on this flop, but it’s all clubs. I think I have two choices, whimp out and call this down, or try and take it here…

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have to try to take it down. You don't want to let anyone with one club draw, and if somebody flopped a flush, you still have many outs to a full house or quads:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1035148
pokenum -h jd js - ac tc -- jc 9c 3c
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Jc 9c 3c
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js Jd 341 34.44 649 65.56 0 0.00 0.344
Ac Tc 649 65.56 341 34.44 0 0.00 0.656

Hope this helps.

NoBrains

06-16-2005, 06:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

but didn’t want to push the pot up too high

[/ QUOTE ]

For some reason, I've been seeing this idea pop up recently, and it's wrong, wrong, wrong.

1.) You WANT the pot high. You have the fourth-best starting hand!

2.) The other reason to raise it up is to knock out drawing hands. Your Jacks get progressively more vulnerable as more people join the pot. Ideally, you want to get heads-up whenever you have pocket queens, jacks, or tens.

With a substantial raise, you will accomplish one or both of these goals. With a wimpy raise, you won't accomplish either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I agree with this line of thinking. What I was after was; “how to minimize the number of folks in the pot, yet not over-commit chips with many yet to act behind me.”

What I often see is if the raise is too large, it seems to entice folks to go all-in. At this stage I don’t want anyone going all-in because I won’t know what it means (QQ-AA, AQ+, any 2 pushing for chips).

But I agree that t125-t175 would have been a better amount.

kyro

06-16-2005, 06:17 PM

I call PF. No need to get too frisky with a very vulnerable hand.

Flop is an easy push. In the rare event someone has a flush, you've got enough redraws to make the push profitable.

NoBrains

06-16-2005, 06:47 PM

Yes, those JJ, look great in your hand until the A,K,Q shows up on the flop. LOL

But remember these are the 11’s. Almost anyone with a Ax, Kx, Qxs, seems to be willing to take a peek at a flop for t30 at the first round. I’ve got 2 in and 5 to act. I’m thinking a call here does not provide any protection?

allintuit

06-16-2005, 06:59 PM

I'm DEFINITELY pushing on the flop!

pineapple888

06-16-2005, 08:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]

What I often see is if the raise is too large, it seems to entice folks to go all-in. At this stage I don’t want anyone going all-in because I won’t know what it means (QQ-AA, AQ+, any 2 pushing for chips).

[/ QUOTE ]

Once again, I've been seeing this idea in recent posts. IMHO, it's just an excuse for weak play.

With the fourth-best starting hand, you *want* to entice people all-in!

It's rare to be certain of anything in poker. You just have to make the best read you can, try to get your chips in as the favorite, and hope for the best as the cards hit the board.

So you raise. So somebody else pushes all-in. Now you have a decision to make, based on your reads. Welcome to poker.

But you absolutely cannot let the fact that somebody *might* re-raise you stop you from making a strong *initial* bet when you have what is likely to be the best starting hand at the table.

I hope I'm not being too strident here, but this is a very important point.

kyro

06-17-2005, 09:40 AM

At the very low limits I'm not really looking for protection. I'm looking to flop a set.

NoBrains

06-17-2005, 04:31 PM

Was involved in a very similar hand yesterday… I see a couple of mistakes in this one also (guess I’m a slow learner with no brains).

1) too small a re-raise once again
2) Should have pushed against the small stack all-in instead of calling and letting UTG+1 come along (he prolly would have come anyway, but…)

11’s … Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t1345)
UTG+1 (t740)
MP1 (t1141)
MP2 (t697)
MP3 (t272)
Hero (t745)
Button (t860)
SB (t1460)
BB (t740)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 calls t30, 1 fold, MP3 raises to t60, Hero raises to t90, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls t60, MP1 calls t60, MP3 raises to t272 (All-In), Hero calls t182, UTG+1 calls t182, MP1 folds.

Flop: (t951) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players, 1 all-in)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets t473 (All-In), UTG+1 calls t468 (All-In).

Turn: (t1892) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players, 3 all-in)

River: (t1892) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players, 3 all-in)

Final Pot: t1892

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 has 4s 4h (one pair, fours).
MP3 has Ad Qs (one pair, queens).
Hero has Js Jh (straight, queen high).
Outcome: Hero wins t1892.

pineapple888

06-17-2005, 05:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Was involved in a very similar hand yesterday… I see a couple of mistakes in this one also (guess I’m a slow learner with no brains).

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, you're thinking about this stuff and asking questions. So you have more potential than 80% of Party players.

[ QUOTE ]

2) Should have pushed against the small stack all-in instead of calling and letting UTG+1 come along (he prolly would have come anyway, but…)

[/ QUOTE ]

If he wants to come along, make him pay for the privilege. Drive them out or make them pay. That's the essence of strong poker. And if you lose to an even better hand or a suckout, fire up another game. End of lecture. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Matt R.

06-17-2005, 06:07 PM

I actually prefer a small raise here. t90 IS too small though IMO as you're laying the limpers too good of odds to fold, but I'd like a t125 raise. I really prefer to keep the pot small in short stack NL as it keeps post-flop play a lot easier. Even with a big raise you're likely to get a lot of callers at the early blind levels, and there are quite a few flops you don't like with JJ. If you can get all-in vs. a weaker hand, that's great, but you have to take into account future betting rounds. It's a lot easier to play in a smaller pot when an A, K, or Q flops.

pineapple888

06-17-2005, 07:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I really prefer to keep the pot small in short stack NL as it keeps post-flop play a lot easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since when is ease of play a worthy goal?

If this is your preference, so be it. But it's a leak.

Not to harsh on you personally, but I'm just seeing post after post lately justifying weak play that all boil down to the following: "I don't want to face the prospect of making a tough decision."

Good players want a big pot when they are confident they have the best hand. If that leads to a tough decision later, so be it.

And if you really want an easy post-flop decision, then push pre-flop.