Re: Charging the Flush Draw Thread

[Sasnak]

With a flush draw I fully understand getting all the bets you can into the middle and the pot odds of hitting your flush.

I made a post earlier about raising middle pair with a 2 flush on the flop with the comment "Raising for information and to charge draws.".

I was directed to this post about the misconception of charging flush draws:
Everyone who wants to "charge the flush draws" PLEASE READ (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=459928&Fo rum=,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,&Words=raising%20for%20i nfo&Searchpage=6&Limit=25&Main=459301&Search=true& where=bodysub&Name=43&daterange=1&newerval=2&newer type=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post459928) ~ Ed Miller

I understand the statement of "charging flush draws" can be wrong unto itself. But isn't that one-sided? TOP distinctly states there are times where raising is the better option of betting, calling or folding even if you ARE giving an opponent the "correct odds" to call.

Plus there will be times you hope he does call you raises even if he is on a draw. His flush/straight draw may not make it and your pair could be the best hand.

obviously if I make money by putting bets in with a flush draw in a multi-way pot, it stands to reason they are also getting the best of it when I'm raising TPTK into their flush draw. So what? Isn't the reason of raising to build pots, gain info, buy outs, drive out opponents, give incorrect odds to call, etc., and at times you actually hope someone does call your raise? You can't sit passive with an A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif on a flop of Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif. You're gonna be raising early and not checking it through with 4 players. Right?

[dozer]

the problem is raising and thinking I am raising for info and to charge flush draws.

No one said raising is wrong, just don't raise for the wrong reasons. Raising can protect your hands from gutshots etc, and is also for value because you have top pair. I havn't read the other post you posted, but I think having second pair is different because you can't really say you are raising second pair for value or protecting it from gutshots etc,because second pair is rarely the best hand in a multi-way pot.

[Jakesta]

I think you misunderstand the concept.

If you have TPTK, and one of your opponents has a flush draw, you both benefit from all the money that goes into the pot. He will get about 35% of the money and you'll get about 65%, assuming other opponents have crap. So the rest of the people in the pot are subsidizing both of you. You are getting the best of it, and he is getting the second best, but you're both doing well.

[Sasnak]

[ QUOTE ]
the problem is raising and thinking I am raising for info and to charge flush draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

But in actuallity you are charging for the times he misses. I know I've dumped many a chip into the middle multiway with a NFD and missed only to see one pair/two pair take the pot. And I've had guys bet into me and I'll call/reraise becasue I believe I have the best of it according to the pot odds, but still... You MUST hit your card.

I do think you can charge a draw, though it's whether the charge is positive or negative which matters.

[Sasnak]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you misunderstand the concept.

If you have TPTK, and one of your opponents has a flush draw, you both benefit from all the money that goes into the pot. He will get about 35% of the money and you'll get about 65%, assuming other opponents have crap. So the rest of the people in the pot are subsidizing both of you. You are getting the best of it, and he is getting the second best, but you're both doing well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed and I have a handle on it but I disagree with not being able to "charge" a draw. Every time my flush misses I was charged.

[Jakesta]

Saying charge the flush draw implies that there is a price that you can charge them that will make it incorrect for them to call.

[dozer]

[ QUOTE ]

But in actuallity you are charging for the times he misses. I know I've dumped many a chip into the middle multiway with a NFD and missed only to see one pair/two pair take the pot. And I've had guys bet into me and I'll call/reraise becasue I believe I have the best of it according to the pot odds, but still... You MUST hit your card.

I do think you can charge a draw, though it's whether the charge is positive or negative which matters.

[/ QUOTE ]
just because a flush draw misses, doesn't mean you are charging the flush draw. Can you predict the future, and know if it will miss or hit? As long as the flush draw is getting the correct odds to draw, it doesn't matter if it misses. It is still making money in the long run. Draws have the advantage in the late streets, when it misses, it is a easy fold. When they hit, they are usually paid off by top pairs and 2 pairs etc because the pot will be too big to fold.

[Jakesta]

Bingo.

They're freerolling.

[ceskylev]

[ QUOTE ]
Every time my flush misses I was charged.

[/ QUOTE ]

False.

Look, the fact that you're bringing up results in a post about pot equity means that you don't quite have a handle on it.

When the pot is multiway, you and the current favorite (let's say TPTK) are *both* making money from the donks with bottom pair or overcards. You (and TPTK) are charging them and making money.

Even drawing hands have pot equity. When that share is large enough, your drawing hand makes money with every bet that goes in to the pot. Even when you miss. This is why it's sometimes correct to raise and re-raise with big draws even when you're not the favorite. You're not being charged, you're being subsidized by others.

[Drunken Monkey]

I understand what is being said on this thread, but I am still confused about how to play a flush draw in limit.

If the pot is heads up it is still only correct to play for the flush if you think that the current odds and implied odds are greater than the chances of making the flush?

If the pot is multi-handed then it is correct to basically call to the river?

If I have a strong flush draw should I be raising if I think that I can keep the pot multi-way?

[Sasnak]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand what is being said on this thread, but I am still confused about how to play a flush draw in limit.

If the pot is heads up it is still only correct to play for the flush if you think that the current odds and implied odds are greater than the chances of making the flush?

If the pot is multi-handed then it is correct to basically call to the river?

If I have a strong flush draw should I be raising if I think that I can keep the pot multi-way?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if I have overcards to the board I'm more aggressive. If the board pairs I begin to caution up especially if I read a set on the flop and the Turn pairs the board.

It took some bashing of my dome by a few others here to get me to see I had 10 outs to a set, 1 to make Quads, and 9 outs to pair the board. Where the flush draw only had nine outs.

If I flop a low flush like XXs in the BB with lot's of raising going on, I'll call the whole way until the river then pop'em.

Right? Wrong? Dunno... But that's the way I do her. Anybody?

[Aaron W.]

You missed the points.

[ QUOTE ]
1) Apparently you have concluded that if you are "charged too much" with your flush draw, you should fold
2) Others have concluded that it is correct always to play a flush draw passively to avoid being "charged"
3) Still others put in silly 3-bets and 4-bets on the flop (in situations where their winning chances are dubious) because they are deathly afraid of "failing to charge the flush draws." Ironically, the 3- and 4-bets are often better for the flush draws than the player making them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're misunderstanding #3. He's referring to players who would raise/3-bet second pair and other mediocre hands because they suspected there was a flush draw out there. They did this without deference to the thought that they could actually be behind in the hand. You don't have that problem in your example.

This fallacy would be played out in the following hand:

A few limpers to Hero who limps with KTo on the button. Blinds call, and the flop comes AT6 with two hearts (Hero has no hearts). Small blind checks, big blind bets, and all the limpers call. Hero, thinking that at least one of them has a flush draw, raises to "charge the flush draw". SB folds and BB 3-bets. The all the limpers call. Hero raises again to "charge the flush draw".

I don't see this play at all around here.

[MrWookie47]

There's been quite a bit of good information so far in this thread, but I think I want to flesh out and combine a few points just for clarity.

1. On the flop, a nut flush draw has roughly 35% equity. Therefore, a flush draw makes money for every bet that goes into the pot if the pot is 3 handed or more. The current best hand is getting an even bigger share of whatever money goes in, but the player with the flush draw is getting paid, even if in the end it only turns out to be Sklansky bucks.

2. On the turn, a flush draw has roughly 16% equity. If the pot is six handed or more, the flush draw is making money for every bet that goes in (as is the current best hand). If the pot is shorter than 6 handed, however, the flush draw is no longer making money for each bet that goes in. Instead, the flush draw would prefer to see the river for as few bets as possible. However, calling in this situation is going to be +EV if the pot is large enough (read: virtually always). The best hand, in this situation, is indeed charging the flush draw. Even a single bet cuts down on the pot odds of the flush draw from infinite odds (giving a free card) to something less than that. The best hand makes more money in the long run by putting in as many bets as possible here, even if the flush draw has odds to call 4 BB cold. There is a lot of good information on this subject in the "Raising" section of ToP.

In general, if you are on a draw, calling is +EV if the pot odds are >= the odds of hitting your draw. Additionally, RAISING is +EV if the number of your opponents is >= the odds of hitting your draw. Finally, except for in very rare circumstances, the current best hand is always making money from each bet that goes into the pot, even if draws have odds to call, and even if draws have enough opponents to raise. In either case, the draw or the opponents are paying the best hand the lion's share of the money to continue in the hand.