Pushing from the SB

[Scuba Chuck]

These observations are about the $33s.

I've noticed if it's folded to me on the SB on level 4-5, and I'm at 4-6xBB, and the BB is something similar, so not chip starved, I am seeing a VERY wide calling standard.

For example: Level 4. Folded to me in the SB. I have t550 preflop. BB has t650 preflop. I push and he calls with K3. I have seen many plays like this lately. Very loose standards. The gap concept just doesn't seem to apply here.

Anyway, my question. Is there a concensus belief that if I pushed a hand from the button or CO, calls like this just are not being made?

[dhende3]

I defintely agree... people tend to take the SB vs. BB war VERY seriously. Aside from the spite calls, a lot of people just do not know of the gap concept or are too stupid to have not picked up on it.

Here is their logic:
"Hmm K3 is better than 2 random cards so this is a definite call."

FWIW... I have made some BB calls spite calls vs. known players when I KNOW they are pushing any 2 hoping to squeeze out some future EV.

[gildwulf]

I have definitely run into a lot of this at the 20+2s. I just raised BB from sb with K2o and he "spite called" with 79s (he won). It's very strange...hopefully this is a long-term trend:)

Z

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I just raised BB from sb with K2o and he "spite called" with 79s (he won).

[/ QUOTE ]

It's difficult for me to quantify this scenario without stacksize and blind information.

But, is this situation so boring (yawn), that I get no comments?

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
But, is this situation so boring (yawn), that I get no comments?

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What, you think just cause you're Scuba, you'll get 198234 replies? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I dunno, probably just individual players. The recent $22s I've been playing haven't seemed different from usual, people still fold when they should call or push. I play late night/early morning, when the players are noticeably tighter, so that may be why. But I'm finding that the tight games are just as easy to beat, maybe in fact easier cause you can steal blinds. Just take a tad longer.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
For example: Level 4. Folded to me in the SB. I have t550 preflop. BB has t650 preflop. I push and he calls with K3. I have seen many plays like this lately. Very loose standards. The gap concept just doesn't seem to apply here.


[/ QUOTE ]

The gap concept does apply. You would push with almost any 2 cards. He will only call with a better than average hand. There is a gap.

[ChuckNorris]

Hmm. I played 33's until just a few weeks ago when I moved up to 55's. I do remember seeing plays like that, and it's not like there aren't fish like that in the 55's as well. But you said 'lately', like it's a new thing. Hasn't it always been the major difference between the lower and bigger buy-in games, that in the lower ones there are more LAGgy fish making LAGgy calls? That's why they're so profitable. The fishy opponents bust each other out. And even if the opponent calls with something like 55, JT, Q9, Kx, Ax, you should push any two often from SB according to ICM, so it doesn't really matter. In the example given, you should push even if you knew K3 is among the worst hands he calls with. But you probably knew that..

To answer the question: my feel is that some poeple DO make calls like that if pushed at from earlier on as well, but of course it's less frequent... What a surprising answer..

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For example: Level 4. Folded to me in the SB. I have t550 preflop. BB has t650 preflop. I push and he calls with K3. I have seen many plays like this lately. Very loose standards. The gap concept just doesn't seem to apply here.


[/ QUOTE ]

The gap concept does apply. You would push with almost any 2 cards. He will only call with a better than average hand. There is a gap.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is precisely what I was interested in discussing. This lack of a TRUE gap concept. By this reckoning, no longer should I be pushing any two from the SB if folded to me. I will likely be up against a tighter hand range from the button or CO.

Is this essentially what you're communicating to me?

[microbet]

I haven't compiled anything, but I feel like my SB pushes are working very well in the $33s. Some loose calls, but I'm sure there are plenty of tight folds that I don't get to see.

[Scuba Chuck]

Just another thought. Does anybody call a SB push with Kx?

[lastchance]

At a table filled with 2+2ers, certainly. At a table of normal people, no way.

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]
Just another thought. Does anybody call a SB push with Kx?

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rarely but sometimes I will against a player that I know is very good and would be pushing any two. You find a lot more of these players at the $50s though.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For example: Level 4. Folded to me in the SB. I have t550 preflop. BB has t650 preflop. I push and he calls with K3. I have seen many plays like this lately. Very loose standards. The gap concept just doesn't seem to apply here.


[/ QUOTE ]

The gap concept does apply. You would push with almost any 2 cards. He will only call with a better than average hand. There is a gap.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is precisely what I was interested in discussing. This lack of a TRUE gap concept. By this reckoning, no longer should I be pushing any two from the SB if folded to me. I will likely be up against a tighter hand range from the button or CO.

Is this essentially what you're communicating to me?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you mean by "lack of a TRUE gap concept".

The gap concept just states that he needs a better hand to call with, than you need to raise with. It doesn't have to be a good hand.

People take it personally when you push from the SB. If they become convinced that you are pushing any 2, then a call from K2 becomes a strong possibility. K3 is a favorite over your hand range, so it's debateable how much of a spite call this really is.

In any event, most players won't call with K3, so I wouldn't abandon the any-2 push from the SB. Maybe the BBs range is a bit tighter if you push from button or CO, but this advantage is outweighed by the fact that there are more people left to act.