J4o -- a miserable little top-pair hand

[Nick C]

This hand took place at one of the best 3/6 tables I've been able to find recently, which, on the whole, was loose and fairly passive. There was a lot of chasing taking place.

Here are some stats:

MP2 is 48/2/0.4 after 130 hands.
MP3 is 29/13/2.4 after 84 hands.
CO is 34/1/0.9 after 96 hands.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

<font color="#0000FF">I thought that if I didn't bet, the flop might just get checked through. I didn't really like getting raised and having everyone stay in, though.</font>

Turn: (6.16 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls.

<font color="#0000FF">I planned to check-fold here, actually, but then MP3 didn't bet, and I changed plans. I'm not sure if this was wise or not -- or, for that matter, whether my initial check-fold plan was either.</font>

River: (10.16 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets . . .</font>

<font color="#0000FF">And here I am following through. I plan to fold to a raise.</font>

Thoughts?

[ihardlyknowher]

I would check/call the river.

[Fat Nicky]

Flopping top pair weak kicker from the blinds is a tricky situation, especially with the amount of players in the pot, 4, partcularly because it is impossible to know where a bet will come from. I think that betting out is the safe way to play is, escpecially with loose passives acting behind you.

The pot getting raised sucks and it looks like it's time to dump it on the turn. But, MP3 throws you for a loop and checks after raising the flop, very strange indeed, considering the fact that he has pretty aggressive stats. CO could be betting a wide range of hands here, including a 9, with more incentive to bet that it was checked to him and he was acting last, so I do like the turn raise.

The river is an easy value bet, so in final, I think you played the hand fine.

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif4/images/graemlins/club.gif,

[/ QUOTE ]

Whats up with J4 all of a sudden....

Anyway...

I think your lead out on this board is fine. It's a top pair board.

That said you got raised on a top pair board with you holding a shitty kicker. -- given it was by a somewhat aggressive player - I think a call is ok, but it is probably close.

Now on the turn - it's spew.

It's still very much a top pair board, and a much more passive appearing player has bet - i think you can let it go. I check-fold the turn.

--Now--

If the board had been more of a drawing board, I might have tried a CR on the flop, with the likelihood of semi-bluff bets increasing on the flop.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]


The river is an easy value bet, so in final, I think you played the hand fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif I disagree - by no means is this an easy value bet.

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


The river is an easy value bet, so in final, I think you played the hand fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif I disagree - by no means is this an easy value bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

CO is loose passive, he probably calls with any piece of the flop. I will agree though, maybe I a little overboard by calling it easy. I do not think we can dismiss it though/

[chief444]

Since CO isn't ridiculously loose and so far is pretty passive postflop his flop cold-call/turn bet has me thinking it may be a good time to get away from this one.

I think the river is close but I'd actually check thinking I'm likely behind CO and he'll probably check through a better J. It's close though. But that was my first thought.

[Sarge85]

Chief,

what do you think of this:
[ QUOTE ]

--Now--

If the board had been more of a drawing board, I might have tried a CR on the flop, with the likelihood of semi-bluff bets increasing on the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Spew?

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]

CO is loose passive, he probably calls with any piece of the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but I don't think he bets with any piece - especially only second pair, after the pot has been led at, and then raised.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Fat Nicky]

this thread is making me believe I overplay top pair weak kicker from the blinds before letting it go when it's obvious I am beat.

[damaniac]

Of course it also makes it more likely that you're going to get cold-called in between, which isn't going to make this hand any easier to play on later streets.

[chief444]

Sarge,

I'll say this as I alluded to in the other similar threads. I'd be much more likely to check the flop on a draw heavy board without a doubt. But it could result in any check-raise/call/fold option. But yes, I agree with your thinking. The uncoordinated board and only 3 opponents in a small pot makes it a pretty easy flop bet IMO compared to a more coordinated board.

Chief

[Sarge85]

That may be a consequence, but more often than not, you'll get HU which is the goal.

I don't alter, (what, imo, is a good play based on circumstance)based on what might happen.

Besides, if you are putting people on ranges of hands, you can adjust your scale somewhat if people choose to call 2 cold.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Nick C]

Thanks for the responses so far.

I do have one more question.

I didn't post more detailed stats for CO in the original post, because I wasn't aware of them at the time the hand took place, and unfortunately CO's tendency to become increasingly aggressive during a hand isn't something I'd managed to pick up on through observation.

But, anyway, his aggression numbers street by street for 96 hands are as follows:

Flop: 0.4
Turn: 0.8
River: 2.2

With this in mind, I'm thinking that, assuming I'm still in the hand on the river, I prefer a check-call plan. A check-behind by a better jack (which Chief mentioned and I think would in fact take place versus an opponent with CO's overall aggression a decent amount of the time) might not be very likely against this opponent, unless he's worried about getting checkraised again, but then he also might bet worse hands when checked to anyway, and I eliminate the possibility of getting pushed off of the winning hand. (I'm not really sure how much danger there is of this opponent raising a worse hand anyway, though. CO doesn't know I initially checked the turn with the intention of folding, and I have shown a lot of postflop strength.)

Anyway, what do you think?

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
this thread is making me believe I overplay top pair weak kicker from the blinds before letting it go when it's obvious I am beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check out my thread from yesterday "Comparing a couple of situations". It's funny that it's J4o as I just made that up yesterday.

Anyway, that makes 2 of us. Over the last 2 days, I've learned that I'm overplaying this as well.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this thread is making me believe I overplay top pair weak kicker from the blinds before letting it go when it's obvious I am beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check out my thread from yesterday "Comparing a couple of situations". It's funny that it's J4o as I just made that up yesterday.

Anyway, that makes 2 of us. Over the last 2 days, I've learned that I'm overplaying this as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I don't think (given the way the table was playing) that I necessarily should have given CO's flop cold-call by itself a lot of credit, it's quite likely that once he went ahead and bet the turn, I should have showed more respect.

Then again, I know the results. But I do now think I overplayed the hand on the big streets.

[oreogod]

Anybody fold the turn?

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
Anybody fold the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

That seems to be the majority recommendation, and I do now agree with it.

[Nick C]

CO raised the river (probably he had me crushed from the outset), and I folded.

Then I sort of made a mental note to myself not to bet-fold the river again, unless I felt it was clearly the best play, for at least the next orbit or two.

I have this theory that when you checkraise the turn and drive people out, and then you go on to fold the river on what appears to be a blank, well, that's the kind of thing other players may notice (especially the ones who folded to your turn checkraise).

Thanks for the responses.