A play I rarely make

[adanthar]

Party $109. Earlier in level 4, the villain in this hand had limped AK UTG, called a decent bet from the SB on a QT9 board, another one on an A turn and value bet the A river when he checked.

***** Hand History for Game 2212683289 *****
NL Hold'em $100 Buy-in + $9 Entry Fee Trny:13126094 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Wednesday, June 15, 20:55:30 EDT 2005
Table Table 14232 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 2: trytolie ( $4210 )
Seat 3: Rr200 ( $1188 )
Seat 7: Adanthar1 ( $907 )
Seat 8: tonil2177 ( $3695 )
Trny:13126094 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
There is no Small Blind in this hand as the Big Blind of the previous hand left the table.
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Adanthar1 [ Tc 9c ]
tonil2177 calls [100].
trytolie folds.
Rr200 folds.
Adanthar1 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8c, Jd, 5h ]
>You have options at Table 35010 Table!.
Adanthar1 bets [150].
tonil2177 raises [300].
Adanthar1 calls with the intention of pushing any remotely blank-looking turn.

[octaveshift]

I might push the flop here.

Why are you waiting for the turn?

My guess: Your call should look scary to the villain if he is a strong/alert player. Your push on the turn won't look much like a bluff, because you really have no FE against the bigstack. (It will look like you want the call.)

Am I close?

[durron597]

Well, this is a good way to maximize your FE, but I don't think you can get this opponent to lay down.

[45suited]

You put the villain on a couple of whiffed big cards and if you push the flop, he'll probably call (knowing he has two cards to hit). Plus, pushing the flop makes it look way more like you could be simply you pushing a draw. But if you push a blank turn you "can't" be drawing and then it appears to him that he is the one drawing to as few as 6 outs with one card to come?

I have to be honest - I would never have thought of this play. It's like a turn stop-n-go huh?

I should add that I don't think I could ever have the guts to make this play on the 11s or 22s. That would be giving way too much credit to my opponents...

[introv]

I understand why you did this but surely you have a different set of circumstances to your first hand here. Villain doesnt just call, he raises. If he is willing to call big bets with overcards only I don't think he'd need much of a hand to call your all-in on the turn?

Ah, but now you've bet out on the flop with the OE straight draw you don't want to fold but you want to maximise the possibility of getting a fold if you miss? I still can't see him folding.

[Unarmed]

I like this line in some cases, but I think its too fancy here. Anything that has you beat badly on the flop (TT through AA) isn't going anywhere when the turn bricks and you push. You're ahead of AK on the flop, and any PP lower than 7s. I'd just get your money in. If he has exactly 77 or 99, he may fold to that flop aggression (you didn't C/R all-in so it doesn't reek of a draw) and even if he calls you're not a significant dog anyway. I don't think your FE improves vs those two hands anyway when the turn bricks so get your money in now.

[45suited]

I think that you guys might be putting villain on too strong of a hand here though. You don't think there's any chance that he's just trying to bully the short stack and he too could have missed the flop, but just have overs?

I think it's entirely possible that the OP has as many as 14 outs here with one card to come.

[octaveshift]

Adanthar, would love to have you come back and comment on this hand.

Don't leave me hanging...

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[adanthar]

I do want to add that my stack and the fact that it was already the bubble had a lot to do with this.

[curtains]

My most common way to play this hand is to check raise the flop. It's so annoying when you bet out and get raised with only a draw, when there is some chance your opponent's hand isn't that strong and would have folded to a check raise.

Also if they check behind on the flop, it's an okay situation because you get a free card of course, and you can then strongly consider betting out on the turn if you miss, and be a little more confident folding to a raise.

Basically I hate the situation you put yourself into and would try to avoid it. Probably if I did want to play the hand this way I'd just move allin on the flop, as if they are bluffing (which they sometimes may be in this situation), you don't want to give them a free chance to hit something on the turn. Meanwhile if they werent bluffing it's very unlikely they fold to a contrived looking type of bet. I just don't get the point, what hand are you trying to make fold? A jack isn't going anywhere no matter what you do, an 8 maybe....but maybe not (probably not, your bet just looks too suspicious for me to expect someone to fold with anything here in such a big pot). Meanwhile you maybe get a lot of hands to fold that would occasionally beat you on the turn.

Anyway I feel like I did a crap job of explaining my thoughts here, but okay I would definitely check the flop, because getting raised is such a disaster and the pot size is just perfect for a check raise allin.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]

Probably if I did want to play the hand this way I'd just move allin on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I would definitely check the flop, because getting raised is such a disaster and the pot size is just perfect for a check raise allin.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are saying check raise all-in, vs. an immediate push?

Me likes.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
My most common way to play this hand is to check raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

So is mine, if the SB was in or even if there *was* an SB posted. HU, I figured he'd fold more than 37% etc.

Also, I think my FE when I CR the flop is very close to zero with this guy.

[microbet]

What about DarrenX's idea (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2653251&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1) that the check/raise all-in reeks of a draw?

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
my FE when I CR the flop is very close to zero with this guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but I think your check/call/push line will give him pause.

[curtains]

It doesn't matter. The point of checkraising allin is that he will bet most flops even with nothing, and can almost never call with nothing even if he suspects a draw. Of course I will almost always check raise with a made hand here too, because it's such a surefire obvious spot for your opponent to bet. For your opponent to check in this spot they would have to be unbelievably timid.

Everyone likes to assume these check raises are draws, but okay sometimes they aren't, especially when the board is J85 and there aren't a multitude of draws out there. I'm pretty sure that the majority of the time I will have a real hand if I check raise on a board like this, even if the flop had a flush draw too.

Also this is a completely completely different spot. In DarrenX's hand I believe the guy bet into a few opponents thus is almost guaranteed to have at least something, thus convincing them to fold will take a lot more effort. In this spot, if we check our opponent will bet with basically anything thus we don't need to attempt to go through ridiculous contortions to make them lay down their hand.

[dhende3]

I hope you have the intention of being called on any remotely blank turn.

[microbet]

In DarrenX's hand a lot of people saw the flop, but everyone checked to the Villan, who then bet.

I am a little confused about your line with a made hand as you so regularly seem to advocate betting out the flop. Do you check/raise here with a made hand largely because of the villian's big stack?

[curtains]

I'm not sure what you mean about how I regularly advocate betting out the flop. In a situation where you can be very confident that your opponent will bet for you, I will lean towards checking, and this is exactly one of those times.

[microbet]

This was from Lady Don't Tenko's (?) recent post. How about here? garedogii has position and a big stack and seems pretty likely to want to bet on the flop. Also, he could get a call or two before you reraise. I dunno, do you think he is likely enough to bet if you check? Does the flush draw keep you from going for the check/raise?

I would normally bet out about 3/4 pot.

(just talking about the flop here)

Hand 3
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: HERO (690)
Seat 2: Triweasel (920)
Seat 3: garedogii (2085)
Seat 6: bobbybobob (355)
Seat 7: GeoffR23 (940)
Seat 8: SteeleBlue (500)
Seat 9: Gnstrluv (1640)
Seat 10: eightballjoe (870)
SteeleBlue posts small blind (25)
Gnstrluv posts big blind (50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ 8h, 8c ]
eightballjoe calls (50)
HERO calls (50)
Triweasel folds.
garedogii calls (50)
bobbybobob folds.
GeoffR23 folds.
SteeleBlue folds.
Gnstrluv checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 8d, 6d, Kh ]
Gnstrluv checks.
eightballjoe checks.
HERO bets (100)
garedogii calls (100)
Gnstrluv folds.
eightballjoe folds.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Ad ]
HERO checks.
garedogii checks.
** Dealing River ** : [ 5h ]
HERO bets (200)
garedogii raises (540) to 540
HERO calls (340)
HERO is all-In.

[adanthar]

Nah, too many draws and you badly hate it if he checks.

In general, you should bet unless there's a good reason not to, like no one playing back or expecting a raise you can't call.

[microbet]

I agree. However, I check/raise so rarely, there must be some spots where I'm missing it.

When/if you check/raise do you normally have a strong draw, something like a draw+pair, just a little something and the feeling your opponent doesn't have enough to call with, or something else?

[adanthar]

The way I play, with a few exceptions, anything I bet I would CR with in the right circumstances and vice versa.

*Big* exception: 'one street' hands that are finished after the flop either way (Kx on a Kxx board) should generally be bet out.