MP1 w/AJo and 2nd pair? How's my line? [Archive]

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Sasnak

06-16-2005, 09:56 AM

Still under 30 hands at this table so no notes yet, but Villain has played about half of his hands and has raised preflop a large share of those with 20 hands under his belt.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, 4 folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls. I raise here pretty consistently with hands like AJ/KQ. Table wasn't too aggro either so far. 

Flop: (8 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 folds. Raising for information and to charge draws. 

Turn: (6.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls. Villain checks on a blank. I raised the flop and now I'm thinking my J is good. Plus if I check through I allow a free card to come off which could beat me. 

River: (8.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks. I'm not feeling great about my J and am wondering if he caught a weak Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif x/images/graemlins/heart.gif in the blind. If I bet here I can be reraised or called with a better hand more times than not. A bet here really can't be for value either though, correct? 

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

Would you have played this differently?

topspin

06-16-2005, 10:23 AM

Looks standard all the way.

jrz1972

06-16-2005, 10:27 AM

I play the same on all streets, but the main reason why I'm raising the flop is to get a free card. Somebody else can link to the "charging the flush draws" thread, but suffice it to say that if somebody has a flush draw, your raise is +EV for them.

The way the hand played out (with two opponents unexpectedly folding to my flop raise), I would also decline the free card and bet the turn.

River is standard.

Bodhi

06-16-2005, 01:39 PM

The BB either has a Q or has two hearts, so I agree that betting here is not for value (he'll fold if he was on a flush draw, obviously). On the other hand, I don't think he has Qx/images/graemlins/heart.gif because any rational player would 3 bet the flop with that hand.

Btw, raising for information is very, very unreliable. What information did you gain by raising this flop, besides the BB's passivity? His first bet already told you that he has a Q or a flush draw, and you're not going to narrow his holding down any more precisely than that.

Bodhi

06-16-2005, 01:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
the main reason why I'm raising the flop is to get a free card. Somebody else can link to the "charging the flush draws" thread, but suffice it to say that if somebody has a flush draw, your raise is +EV for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. It never hurts flush draws when you raise them in a multi-way pot on the flop. In fact, you're making them money. Still, it has to be done to cut down the odds of the weaker draws or bottom pairs. You might also be making money, but that just means that other players are very -EV here because they have to fund you and the flush draw.

Sasnak

06-16-2005, 01:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Btw, raising for information is very, very unreliable. What information did you gain by raising this flop, besides the BB's passivity? His first bet already told you that he has a Q or a flush draw, and you're not going to narrow his holding down any more precisely than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with raising for info is unreliable. His first bet could have been a bluff/semi-bluff into the preflop raiser. If it was I might get him to fold his hand. If he doesn't, it narrows his range of hands down.

Sinnister

06-16-2005, 01:54 PM

with people still left to act after me id probably have folded in this spot

Bodhi

06-16-2005, 01:57 PM

Seeing him fold to your raise counts as gaining information? When you see a QJ flop, it's likely that it hit the pfr squarely. Why would someone semi-bluff with something other than a flush draw into the pfr knowing they will get raised?

There's an Ed Miller thread that discusses raising for information and how unreliable it is. Find it and read it.

Bodhi

06-16-2005, 01:58 PM

You're going to fold getting 9:1 with the second best pair and top kicker?

Bodhi

06-16-2005, 02:12 PM

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=459928&Fo rum=,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,&Words=raising%20for%20i nfo&Searchpage=6&Limit=25&Main=459301&Search=true& where=bodysub&Name=43&daterange=1&newerval=2&newer type=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post459928

Sasnak

06-16-2005, 02:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Seeing him fold to your raise counts as gaining information? When you see a QJ flop, it's likely that it hit the pfr squarely. Why would someone semi-bluff with something other than a flush draw into the pfr knowing they will get raised?

There's an Ed Miller thread that discusses raising for information and how unreliable it is. Find it and read it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll look for it later at the office. In TOP Sklansky discusses raising in detail and it includes raising for info.

Sasnak

06-16-2005, 02:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=459928&Fo rum=,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,&Words=raising%20for%20i nfo&Searchpage=6&Limit=25&Main=459301&Search=true& where=bodysub&Name=43&daterange=1&newerval=2&newer type=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post459928

[/ QUOTE ]

Tnx. I'll study it later this afternoon. Still battling killer flops on premium hands... Grrrrr...

Bodhi

06-16-2005, 02:20 PM

Right, I remember read that too and drawing some erroneous conclusions. TOP can be misleading because the games it describes are much, much tougher than the ones we play.