Borg 10/20: KJs facing a turn bet from nowhere

[MHarris]

Outstanding game last night. UTG+2 is a LAG, raising 3-4 times an orbit with monsters like J4s and A2. He coldcalls frequently as well and plays pretty fearlessly postflop. He has been showing some respect to my preflop raises, as I've been getting cold-decked and playing very tight. BB is loose and not very aggressive.

I raise UTG+1 with Kh Jh. LAG calls in UTG+2, and BB calls. 3 to the flop for 6.5 SB.

Flop: K54, 1 heart. BB checks, I bet, LAG raises, BB calls, I call. I think LAG likely has just a K here, although I wouldn't rule out K5/55/44, AK/KQ, or 76. BB has some piece here, and he'd call this bet with any draw.

Turn: offsuit 6. BB bets, hero......?

[JoshuaD]

Calls, folds if he has to put in more than 1 bet after that to see a showdown against the BB. I'd see a showdown HU against the LAG if he raises and BB folded out.

The donkbet is wierd, the pot's getting kinda big, so you wanna see a showdown.

If the lag has you beat it doesn't sound like he's gonna fold to two cold, so there's no reason to raise. All it does is open yourself up to a 3-bet.

edit: I left out the explaination.

[einbert]

I think even a LAG is going to be hardpressed to raise a bettor and caller on this turn without a huge hand. So I call, and I'll fold the river unimproved but I'm seeing the showdown if the board pairs or I trip up or make two pair.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
I think even a LAG is going to be hardpressed to raise a bettor and caller on this turn without a huge hand. So I call, and I'll fold the river unimproved but I'm seeing the showdown if the board pairs or I trip up or make two pair.

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BB bets out the turn, you call, the lag folds. River is a blank, BB bets, you're folding getting ~9:1? Why?

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think even a LAG is going to be hardpressed to raise a bettor and caller on this turn without a huge hand. So I call, and I'll fold the river unimproved but I'm seeing the showdown if the board pairs or I trip up or make two pair.

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BB bets out the turn, you call, the lag folds. River is a blank, BB bets, you're folding getting ~9:1? Why?

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Maybe calling is correct, but the way the OP described BB it sounded like he couldn't really do this donkbet with something we beat. To me it looks like he either hit his gutshot or just make some kind of two pair (either 65,64 or K6).

I would be more likely to call a river blank if I didn't have to worry about the LAG behind me, possibly waiting until the river to raise his whatever.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe calling is correct, but the way the OP described BB it sounded like he couldn't really do this donkbet with something we beat. To me it looks like he either hit his gutshot or just make some kind of two pair (either 65,64 or K6).

I would be more likely to call a river blank if I didn't have to worry about the LAG behind me, possibly waiting until the river to raise his whatever.

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OP didn't describe BB, that's one of the reasons I'm inclined to call. Unknowns making donkbets makes me wanna see a showdown real bad.

I agree with your analysis of his hands, but I think he's got a weak pair and is panicking often enough to make a call down worthwhile.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]

OP didn't describe BB, that's one of the reasons I'm inclined to call. Unknowns making donkbets makes me wanna see a showdown real bad.

I agree with your analysis of his hands, but I think he's got a weak pair and is panicking often enough to make a call down worthwhile.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well he did say BB is "loose and not very aggressive".

I think that description, combined with the flop action makes me give his hand quite a bit of respect. In fact, if this LAG were the maniacal kind that could easily raise us both here with nothing I would be leaning towards a fold at this point.

When a known loose passive bets into two aggressive players that have been betting and raising basically the whole hand, I tend to give him a lot of credit.

[brettbrettr]

This sucks. I suspect you're looking staring at at least 2 pair with a guy behind you who doesn't know that and is going to raise. This could get expensive.

This might be weak as all hell, but given your reads I don't think a fold if out of the question. Hate to do it though. The problem, clearly, is the lag behind you who's capapble of anything.

[einbert]

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I don't think a fold is out of the question.

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I agree, but I think that most LAGs will slow down to a bettor and caller on the turn. If he is going to raise here more than 50% of the time though, it seems like a fold to me.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
Well he did say BB is "loose and not very aggressive".

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/images/graemlins/shocked.gif. I looked over his post 2 or 3 times before I posted that. He clearly edited it in after I posted. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I think that description, combined with the flop action makes me give his hand quite a bit of respect. In fact, if this LAG were the maniacal kind that could easily raise us both here with nothing I would be leaning towards a fold at this point.

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I agree if we think we're gonna get raised behind frequently here we should fold on the turn. But if we do put that bet in on the turn, I think it's worthwhile seeing a showdown unless our read is very strong.

[MHarris]

If you want to show down here, what are your thoughts on raising to move the LAG off his hand (given that he seems to have taken some note of my image, I don't think he can call with anything less than two pair) and checking behind the river (with the intention of folding to a turn 3-bet)?

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to show down here, what are your thoughts on raising to move the LAG off his hand and checking behind the river (with the intention of folding to a turn 3-bet)?

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If the lag has you beat it doesn't sound like he's gonna fold to two cold, so there's no reason to raise. All it does is open yourself up to a 3-bet.

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I just don't think we're getting the lag to fold a better hand here, ever. I don't mind so much folding to the 3-bet, a passive player would probably not even 3-bet a straight here, let alone 2 pair.