30/60 PS Hand Question

[theBruiser500]

On the turn I could check, call his c/r and fold to a river bet unimproved, or take the line I took. Seems like he could be semibluffing and would be bad to give a free card here. Thoughts on turn and river action?

PokerStars 30/60 Hold'em (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

[Roland19]

When he raises the turn, you are absolutely drawing to two outs. You may be even near dead, because he already has a flush. Don't call down when you know you're beat. Use common sense. Fold the turn.

[obi---one]

Completely read based. 5-handed against unknown, I want to know how he plays. I am calling.

[Pog0]

Obviously with an underpair, if you're calling on the turn with the belief that your hand may be good, then a fold on the river is unacceptable. I was about to make a comment to that effect on this hand but you have at least 6 outs to a great hand and possibly even 14 if you're behind.

I think this hand is particularily tricky because if you're behind, you may have 14 outs to to the best hand (suppose he paired the ten, then he has less than 1 in 4 of holding a spade), while if you're ahead, there's a good chance several of these cards you think would make you the best hand actually make him a better hand (if he has overcards for example, there's a better chance he holds a spade and then those outs you think help you actually help him).

a. You don't improve, neither does he, he bets and you fold.
b. You improve to a straight or flush or set, but he improves to a better straight or flush in the process, he bets and you call.

The possibilities are so great that I'm either folding to the turn bet or calling the river bet regardless (I think your line was best though). There are very few hands that if turned face up on the turn are worth folding to. Pocket sevens with a spade is one of them.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
When he raises the turn, you are absolutely drawing to two outs. You may be even near dead, because he already has a flush. Don't call down when you know you're beat. Use common sense. Fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

you keep using your common sense, and losing your money. dunno what you're deal is but chill the eff out, man.

against weak tight players your advice is correct. against tricky aggressive players your advice sucks.

typically the turn c'r can mean many things which is why its a tough decision.

if this is the first hand you've played with this guy the chance that you're good+ the info you get from a showdown leads me to call this down. i expect to be beat more than 65% of the time. you're getting 3.5:1 effective odds on the call down assuming he bets the river. will you be good 22% of the time? i think so...plus the draw equity here is pretty good.

again, i call this down and roland19, calm down.

-Barron

[mc1023]

my advice may be a little too aggressive but in a situation like this I think it's a good line to 3bet the turn and fold to a capp, after check behind or fold to a bet on the river unimproved.

If you are going to call down the river regardless you improve or not, I would 3bet right there to find out if I'm behind or completly drawing dead.

If your not going to 3bet the turn, I would fold right there to his checkraise. Calling imo is weak in this spot.

I don't think you should check the turn here unless you have a read on how the BB plays since there is good fold equity to a turn bet.

[Fortitude]

[ QUOTE ]
When he raises the turn, you are absolutely drawing to two outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only way hero is drawing to only 2 outs is if villan has exactly 99, 59, 69, 89, or T9? He has 4-6 outs against every other hand that beats him.

Not only do you give poor advice, you need to work on counting your outs.

[mperich]

Hey bruiser,

Tough one here. Checking behind on the turn sucks, but you know that since you bet. So you bet and get checkraised...I call down here usually against unknwons shorthanded, the board is just too drawy, against a blind that could be making a move on a board that missed a ton of raising hands.

I think once you get to the river you have to call pretty much regardless of what falls, getting better than 8-1 headsup. If you lose (which you will the majority of the time), at least you get the information.

-Mike

[phish]

[ QUOTE ]
my advice may be a little too aggressive but in a situation like this I think it's a good line to 3bet the turn and fold to a capp, after check behind or fold to a bet on the river unimproved.

If you are going to call down the river regardless you improve or not, I would 3bet right there to find out if I'm behind or completly drawing dead.

If your not going to 3bet the turn, I would fold right there to his checkraise. Calling imo is weak in this spot.

I don't think you should check the turn here unless you have a read on how the BB plays since there is good fold equity to a turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

The danger with your play is that your opponent may cap with two-pair to straight, and you fold, while your flush draw may have been good. In general, when you have draws as you do here, you don't want to take the approach of raising with the intention of folding if reraised. You're much better off just calling down.

Now if he had 33 with no spade, and he suspect his opponent may be on a semi-bluff. Then a 3-bet/fold strategy would be okay. But even there, I've seen guys cap the turn on a semi-bluff.

[Paluka]

Because I don't like any of my lines after I get checkraised, and I think getting checkraised is very typical, I think I have to check this turn and call a river bet.

[steeser]

I tend to agree with Paluka here.

[Nigel]

[ QUOTE ]
Because I don't like any of my lines after I get checkraised, and I think getting checkraised is very typical, I think I have to check this turn and call a river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I check this turn as well. But what do I know.

Nigel

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
my advice may be a little too aggressive but in a situation like this I think it's a good line to 3bet the turn and fold to a capp, after check behind or fold to a bet on the river unimproved.

If you are going to call down the river regardless you improve or not, I would 3bet right there to find out if I'm behind or completly drawing dead.

If your not going to 3bet the turn, I would fold right there to his checkraise. Calling imo is weak in this spot.

I don't think you should check the turn here unless you have a read on how the BB plays since there is good fold equity to a turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

mc1023 isn't this a bad place to 3 bet or fold since if i fold i am missing a lot of outs. on the other hand if i'm going to call a river bet anyway then i can 3 bet, and if he caps me i'm probably drawing to few outs.

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
Because I don't like any of my lines after I get checkraised, and I think getting checkraised is very typical, I think I have to check this turn and call a river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey paluka, a question. A lot of the time I have a made hand where I think my opponent might playback at me but also looks like he could drawing. People keep telling me I just have to bet in those situations and if he raises me take it from there. What criteria can I use to decide when I "need to bet" in those situations and when a check is acceptable like you suggest here.

[mc1023]

Ok read over phish's post and yes you do have a good point that villian could capp two pair or straight but there are also a big range of hands I think he can checkraise that spot with and be forced to call a 3bet.

and yes what bruiser said was more accurate, if villian capps the turn then you may not be drawing dead but to very few outs.

Also I think two pair on that spot, will most likely not capp there on the turn on a draw heavy board imo.

so the only hand I can really see capping me on the turn is a straight, meaning villian would have to be holding either 97 or 74. Or he has a made flush and hero is drawing dead.

With the board how it is, I just can't see how villian could have a very strong hand on the turn that he will capp with. On a different board I may say just call with a small flush draw+gutshot.

I still think if I got capped I would let this hand go since I'm drawing very slim or possibly dead, unless vilian is capable of capping me on the turn with an ugly two pair.

Also incase he is semi-bluffing or even on a complete bluff you charged him a extra bet on the turn.

[obi---one]

[ QUOTE ]
Because I don't like any of my lines after I get checkraised, and I think getting checkraised is very typical, I think I have to check this turn and call a river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
you play good

[Ray Zee]

the only time i can think of where you might 3 bet and fold to a fourth would be with a complete bluff with undercards.
i cant fathom doing it.
i would check on 4th and fold or call on the river.