Why Can't I Lay This Down?!?!

[KramerTM]

PP $33. I hate myself.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1281)
Hero (t664)
UTG (t2615)
MP1 (t935)
MP2 (t1060)
CO (t910)
Button (t535)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls t50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls t50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t200) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 is all-In [885], CO is all-In [860],SB folds, Hero???

Turn: (t200) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>

River: (t200) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB doesn't show.
Hero has Qh 6h (two pair, queens and sixes).
MP1 has As Ac (three of a kind, aces).
CO has 6s 6d (three of a kind, sixes). Hero???

[chisness]

Because many of the players in those are dumb and your hand is probably good much of the time.

[lastchance]

What he said.

Never understimate your opponent's stupidity. Very easy for one of them to have a draw, and the other to have top pair.

[durron597]

Edit: whoops. changing my post to the following (didn't see the 66 in the results section the first time)

I saw this hand happen played by a 2+2er at a UB $25/$50 NL table a few minutes ago.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $50 BB (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB ($18393)
UTG ($8130)
Hero ($20622.50)
SB ($12559.50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls $50, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $225</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $175, UTG calls $175.

Flop: ($700) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $500</font>, UTG calls $500, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2700</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $9300</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $20397.5</font>, BB calls $11097.50.

Turn: ($41995) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: ($41995) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: $41995

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has Ac Jh (two pair, aces and jacks).
Hero has Js Ah (two pair, aces and jacks).
Outcome: BB wins $20997.50. Hero wins $20997.50. </font>

[Karak567]

This is a bad beat post.

[KramerTM]

Pardon my getting personal, but is your penis so small that you browse the boards as self-appointed bad-beat-post-police on the off chance that someone posted something that can be construed as a "bad beat post?"

FYI, this is NOT a bad beat post, but rather a post exploring the possibility of folding a made hand on the flop facing after going for the check-raise and facing two all-ins. And not to nitpick, but this hand isn't even a bad beat! I was beat by either player at every phase of the hand.

Good luck with your future policing and other forms of compensating that makes yourself feel better.

[lastchance]

And yeah, you should still get your money in with 2 pair. Don't be results-oriented.

[KramerTM]

I'm still not completely convinced. While there is no way to have seen the limped Aces, I really feel this hand reeks of a flopped set or top two. I really haven't found (in my 150 some odds tournies) that the 33ers are loose enough where I am winning in this spot.

[45suited]

I know that 2 all-ins in front of you has to make you raise your eyebrows, but if you start looking for reasons to fold two pair on the flop, you will lose far more money on the times that you fold the best hand than you will save by making a "big laydown" when beaten.

You'd be shocked how many times one of the all-ins was on a flush draw and the other had top pair. I'd be interested to see if there is a poster on this entire forum who could honestly say that they would not go broke on this hand.

Just fire up another tournament and move on...

[Karak567]

[ QUOTE ]
And yeah, you should still get your money in with 2 pair. Don't be results-oriented.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is what I was hinting at. Maybe I shouldn't have been so rash?

Even so, my e-peen has grown.

[KramerTM]

At what level do you start to seriously consider jettisoning this hand? 55? 109? Just wondering if flopping 2 pair is always an all-or-nothing scenario.

[KramerTM]

[ QUOTE ]
That is what I was hinting at. Maybe I shouldn't have been so rash?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. And apologies for the penis diatribe. I'm sure yours is at least average.

[Myst]

I would have folded top and bottom pair in this spot at the 33s, as long as the players had not done anything too rash thus far in the tournament. The key is the pot size. A player called an OVERBET in front of you.. That must mean at least Top Two, if not more.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
At what level do you start to seriously consider jettisoning this hand? 55? 109? Just wondering if flopping 2 pair is always an all-or-nothing scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really the question is, "against normal opponents" - I doubt even at the 215s this is a set often enough to make that assumption. The ROI you lose here by calling when you think there's a good chance you should fold, you make up by snapping off bluffs and not playing scared/seeing monsters under the bed.

There's another SnG starting in 1 minute. You can't win every one.

If you disagree, then I suggest that if you raise preflop with KK and get reraised, just fold because you are against AA every time.

[introv]

Agreed. I'd also fold here more often than not (dependant on some very good reads).

Even if you are ahead you are very vulnerable and I simply don't like putting my tourney life on the line when I may be drawing to 2 outs at worst or be a small favourite at best. You have little invested and plenty of room to fold.

However, if you'd bet the flop, been reraised all-in and the reraise called I think your decision would probably be easier.

[Daliman]

Not an easy fold. I definitely call the first allin, but 2? Nope. You have little invested in the pot, and can get away cheaply. If you ran a sim on likely hands that are nowhere NEAR as big as these, I think you'll find yourself losing often enough that even from a pot odds standpoint, you would not be making a good call, much less against monsters such as these.

Anyways, how brutally did 66 play this?
/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[kevstreet]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyways, how brutally did 66 play this?
/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Dali, am I missing something? I definitely call the all in w/ trip 6s on the flop. I don't think he played this bad, but I've misread HHs before not to mention all the times I've been flat out wrong.

[adanthar]

I think this is a fold *solely* because the board is QJ6 and not QT6. QJ is just too obviously staring you in the face to feel happy about your hand. It is very very close and I might call anyway, though, so don't feel bad about this one.

[45suited]

Anything below the 33s and this borders on an insta-call IMO. I've only played a handful of 33s so maybe I'm wrong for that level, but, man, people suck way too much below that to lay this down.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyways, how brutally did 66 play this?
/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Dali, am I missing something? I definitely call the all in w/ trip 6s on the flop. I don't think he played this bad, but I've misread HHs before not to mention all the times I've been flat out wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, my mistake; I missed something. It looked to me like 66 pushed and AA called.

Let's try this agin.

How brutally did AA play this?

[kevstreet]

[ QUOTE ]
How brutally did AA play this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Now this is brutal. On the flop his limped pocket Aces end up being behind Q6, not to mention the pocket 6s. Then he decides enough is enough and bets his entire stack into a 200 chip pot. I'm guessing the clubs woke him up a little. Don't ya' know he redraws on the river and his brilliant play is rewarded. Doesn't it seem that when you play like a donk you end up having to fire up a new SnG because of it?

[KramerTM]

Thanks for the responses. There seems to be a lot of disagreement about how strong top and bottom is here in a limped pot facing 2 all ins. The truth is, I had enough chips to fold this and still have a great chance at placing ITM.

"Every great poker player lays down the best hand sometimes." I think this has to be true when it comes to tournaments, which is why I think I could have gotten away from this one.

[Crispy86]

I'd have called the first all-in probably, but I doubt the second. With a second all-in, I'm going to place at least one of them on trips. The question isn't so much (IMHO) what you have, being a great hand, but what at least one of those two all-ins may have. You can't realistically presume both are playing with nothing very strong. The second all-in says that at the very least the guy isn't afraid of running into a top pair with Ace kicker such as AQ, so what can he have? Either an overpair such as KK, two pair such as you, or trips. Still, it is a very tough laydown, and it is easy for me to rationalize after the fact.

[pineapple888]

This is tricky and highly read-dependent.

With no reads:
Fold on $215s
Think about it on $109s
Call below that

It's the second all-in that worries me. The first I think I have beat. As others have explained well.