ATs OOP

[private joker]

First hand on the tiznable.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.16 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5.16 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, intending to fold to a raise.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005N7T8.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
Yes?

[thirddan]

c/r this flop...lead the turn...

i like your line better if you pair your A instead...

[sy_or_bust]

I'm not convinced you're behind very often on this flop. I checkraise the flop, and call down a 3-bet vs. most players. When MP2 checks behind on the turn, your line self destructs.

[thejameser]

why no c/r on the flop? see how much villain really likes his hand. you have TPTK and a BD flush draw. you have enough with this flop to raise IMO. if you had a 7 i would think you would try to check raise so i would have reraised you on this river if i was villain FWIW.

[Lmn55d]

checkraise the flop fo sure. Seeing how you got to the river, the bet is good.

[thejameser]

[ QUOTE ]
c/r this flop...lead the turn...

i like your line better if you pair your A instead...

[/ QUOTE ]

geez really, why not just flop trips instead...i would like your line better then too.

[youdnf]

I really dont think that is the best way to play the hand. I think a check raise on the flop is the best way to find out where your are. If he reraises you fold, if he calls bet the rest of the way down. Also on the river i dont get a bet out and fold to a raise on the river. I think you should check call, if your going to fold to a reraise on the river. There are two reasons for this, you get to his cards for one.(ex.He could have you beat A J but that gives you information for the future that he would bet out with A J after missing a flop, and you can check raise him in the same sisutiation like this) and the other it is the same amount of money.

[private joker]

I'd like AK to keep betting his inferior hand (and hit his A, that would be nice), but I'd also like to lose the least vs. JJ.

[damaniac]

The line looks like a standard WA/WB, except that when you are ahead, he often has live overcard outs (although, given that you hold the A, I'll bet a lot of times he has as little as 3). Be that as it may, he'll peel with overs anyway, so when he has AK/AQ/AJ etc, he'll call your raise most of the time, thinking he has 6 outs when he has only 3. That's a good situation for you, and even when he has 6 live outs (KQ or something) he'll pay. Given that the average player isn't going to be 3-betting (esp the turn) with overcards very often, you can probably fold to a 3-bet, whereas he will often call at least on the turn with a hand that is drawing thin.

[private joker]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar på:</font><hr />
The line looks like a standard WA/WB, except that when you are ahead, he often has live overcard outs (although, given that you hold the A, I'll bet a lot of times he has as little as 3). Be that as it may, he'll peel with overs anyway, so when he has AK/AQ/AJ etc, he'll call your raise most of the time, thinking he has 6 outs when he has only 3. That's a good situation for you, and even when he has 6 live outs (KQ or something) he'll pay. Given that the average player isn't going to be 3-betting (esp the turn) with overcards very often, you can probably fold to a 3-bet, whereas he will often call at least on the turn with a hand that is drawing thin.

[/ QUOTE ]

Finally, a good post in this thread. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like AK to keep betting his inferior hand (and hit his A, that would be nice), but I'd also like to lose the least vs. JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Things are a bit different against later position raises with a hand that's vulnerable to overcards. I'd checkraise this flop.

Rob

[Emmitt2222]

Why are people clumping his likely holdings into those that someone would 3bet? He could be holding KTs even if he is reasonable TAG because of his position and what appears to be a tighter table. Because he could even have something like A7s I am going for the c/r on that flop and leading the turn. I don't think this is even close to a WA/WB situation in anyway from the information given.

[thirddan]

not sure if you are being sarcastic or not...

hopefully you all see that there is a huge distinction between the hero making top pair with his T as opposed to with his A...

as i said in my earlier post, if hero had paired his A then taking the standard way ahead/way behind line is probably best, but since his top pair is only T high he is almost never WA/WB...

so, since his hand is vulnerable to overcards if it is in fact good he should be trying to win this pot and getting money in while his hand is still good...betting out on the flop is an option, but villain will raise with a wide variety of holding (some we beat and some we don't) so we really gain nothing by betting out...thus, i like a c/r more since it will most likely narrow villains 3betting hands to those that beat us and we can act accordingly from then on, plus it give us control over the hand and prevents villain from taking a free card in the case he has something like KQ/KJ which have outs to beat us...

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
c/r this flop...lead the turn...

i like your line better if you pair your A instead...

[/ QUOTE ]

geez really, why not just flop trips instead...i would like your line better then too.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you completely missed his point. He is saying the OP's line is better when there is an A on board instead of a T, since then he is truly WA/WB.

Edit: Just noticed thirddan explained himself. Oh well.

[ihardlyknowher]

Why no flop bet or c/r?

[Willluck]

i personally like betting out on this flop, then calling down further aggression, you're WA/WB. Any problems with this?

[thirddan]

this hand is not a WA/WB situation...

[Willluck]

against unkown PFR I think it is. He likely has Ax&gt;8 maybe Kx&gt;T or a PP&gt;6s

[thirddan]

you have to account for giving PFR a free card on the turn when he has a hand like KQ/KJ/QJ (which each have 6 outs to beat you), while these are only a part of hte possible hands he will raise they are the ones most likely to benefit and take advantage of your passive play in this situation...

[Willluck]

so...bet/3bet/lead?

[thirddan]

i think in this case i like a c/r then lead...

i think this approach gives you the best chance to win the hand, you are almost always going to see the turn in this hand and its better if you can be the one betting that turn to get a hand that has outs to beat you to fold (or call down incorrectly) rather than risk a free card...

in my other post i say why i don't like leading this flop...

[Lurkmaster Flex]

Flop c/r and turn lead gives you turn fold equity on a blank which the jack is not unfortunately. It also sets up a check bluff call on the river with his AQ AK on the river if a blank hits and it gets that far. This is a relatively easy fold in a semi-small pot to a turn raise barring reads, so I like this the best.

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
c/r this flop...lead the turn...

i like your line better if you pair your A instead...

[/ QUOTE ]

geez really, why not just flop trips instead...i would like your line better then too.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should go back to crushing .05/.10

[chief444]

I'm just curious, were you planning on check/raising the turn instead of the flop but got scared off by the J? I don't typically take such a passive flop approach with TP being T's and being out of position. I'd either bet/3-bet or check/raise, probably more often check/raise and lead any turn card.

[molawn2mo]

Thinking that you are ahead here on the flop, I prefer the more passive rope a dope call the flop, check raise the turn. Since the flop c/r will not normally knock out the opp, I prefer to let him lead, here, and pop the turn. If I turn a K or Q, it gets a bit awkward but I think it's right to bet out. On a safe turn, I check/raise.

Most opps will view your passivity on the flop as weakness and not check thru the turn. If opp is cagy, then I do the flop raise thing.

EDIT: I don't get the turn call. Why do you think that you are behind here? MP2 open raise, 2 big cards, PP. The turn card is only somewhat troublesome and you have redraws. WA/WB line looks wrong, imo. Thoughts?

[Grease]

Perfect.

If he has AK-A9s AT, he keeps leading at you, and you prevent him from seeing a free showdown, which is what he may have intended.

If he has JJ-AA, you are still live and can draw out, but if you c/r the flop, he 3-bets and you're left in quite a predicament

If he has anything worse, then he keeps firing when he would likely fold/slow down if you showed aggression.

The only time this is less than optimal is when he has QJ and KQ, because then it's not WA/WB, but I think the other times outweight this situation.

[damaniac]

Just want to mention something on the WA/WB line. We take that line with say a weak A vs. a preflop raiser because when we are behind (to a better A) it loses us the least, while when he is behind (he has a lower pp) he loses the most to us. The reason is that without an A the opponent will often give up in the face of aggression, and we don't want that if he is drawing to 2 outs.

In this case, even though he will often be drawing to only 3 outs, aggression will most likely not get him to fold. He doesn't know he is reverese dominated and will take one or two off with AK UI. I think people should remember that when we use the WA/WB line, it is (as Private Joker has mentioned before) because it wins us the most when ahead and loses us the least when behind. This isn't the case in this type of situation.

[PokerBob]

I c/r the flop. You likely have him reverse dominated, but by just calling you give him infinite odds to catch.

[molawn2mo]

[ QUOTE ]
I c/r the flop. You likely have him reverse dominated, but by just calling you give him infinite odds to catch.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he turns his overcard then that gives us redraws.

If he is "likely [to] have him reverse dominated," wouldn't it be profitable to smooth call the flop and raise the turn?

[BottlesOf]

Check calling this flop makes just about no sense.

[BottlesOf]

No, it's off. THe guy open raised MP2. His range is fairly wide. This is not a WA/WB situation at all. Also note your pair is the T, not the A. Much more vulnerable.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Perfect.

If he has AK-A9s AT, he keeps leading at you, and you prevent him from seeing a free showdown, which is what he may have intended.

If he has JJ-AA, you are still live and can draw out, but if you c/r the flop, he 3-bets and you're left in quite a predicament

If he has anything worse, then he keeps firing when he would likely fold/slow down if you showed aggression.

The only time this is less than optimal is when he has QJ and KQ, because then it's not WA/WB, but I think the other times outweight this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone saying this is "perfect" is ignoring where the raise came from in a game that can be decently aggressive. You're going to make more money on flops like this in the longrun by playing back. Hands like 99 and 88 aren't folding to flop checkraises and turn bets as often as you guys think, and AK is folding here almost never, and 3-betting fairly regularly.

Rob

[molawn2mo]

[ QUOTE ]
No, it's off. THe guy open raised MP2. His range is fairly wide. Also note your pair is the T, not the A. Much more vulnerable.

[/ QUOTE ]

JBB-

Am I way off, here, feeling more vulnerable if an A flopped? Because I do like the Txx flop better than the Axx flop.

Anyone else feel this way?

Reasoning goes something like MP2 has more AK,AQ,AJ,AT combos than AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT... (plus the more inferior hands that will open raise in MP2) therefore, it is more likely that we are behind when we pair our A rather than our T as is the case here.

If the above is true then this would argue for the pair of A being nore vulnerable, wouldn't it? Help!

[BottlesOf]

I think it comes down to the word "vulnerable."

Let's just say your premise is true (which I also don't think is true, but will address later) that there are more AK, AQ, AJ, combos than the other. In this case you are behind, but you are not "vulnerable" at all, you're just dominated, which is indeed worse.

Vulnerable means it is possible/likely for new cards to slide off on the turn or river that make your hand go from winning to losing. Note that if the flop is Axx, whether you are ahead or behind at that moment is how you are likely to finish the hand.

If you have AT and he has AQ on a Axx flop, you are probably going to lose. If he has KK, you are probably going to win. This is known as being way ahead/way behind, and often it is correct to check-call the flop.

Now had the flop come Txx, you are now dominating AQ (he is probably going to lose) but there are other hands like KQ/KJ/QJ that have 6 outs against you. You are more vulnerable in this situation b/c it is more likely that a card can turn or river which makes you the loser in the hand.

Now your second point, which is better? I'm not sure, I think I'd rather have the A. I think vulnerability is the key issue. I think his range of hands is not so narrow that the dominating Aces are such a healthy portion of his likely holdings. He can have all kinds of broadways and lower pairs in this spot.

Hope this helps, GOING TO VEGAS IN A FEW HOURS WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!