Anyone watch "30 days" of FX?

[kurto]

Its the show by the guy who did SuperSize Me where they try different challenges for 30 days.

In this first episode, he and his girlfriend try to live on minimum wage for 30 days. Its EYE opening. And it really shows how wrong it is that the minimum wage hasn't been raised since '98.

The most eye opening was healthcare. His girlfriend had to go to the doctor with a yeast infection and he for a bad arm. The bill was over $1000... including $40 for an ace bandage (that's criminal.) They realized that with both of them working, it was going to take them 3 months just to pay their hospital bills.

As a person whose job has always provided him with health insurance and has always being relatively comfortable... it was pretty eye opening.

[JackWhite]

I watched it, but for some reason I do not like that guy. I am not sure if this is accurate, but somebody told me he used to make home videos in which he'd pay homeless people to do degrading things. If that is true, he is slime. I hope it isn't.

Anyway, as far as this show. I thought it was well done and fairly entertaining. I think it would be a good idea to index the minimum wage to cost of living. Giving the working poor a little more purchasing power would probably give a boost to the economy, as well as improving their standard of living a little.

[JackWhite]

Kurto, I just did a google search and found this:

http://www.theagitator.com/archives/012211.php

Apparently it is true. This guy (Spurlock) would pay homeless people $100 to eat dog s***, then make money off the videos.

I am having a difficult time believing he cares about poor people when he would cruelly exploit them in the past to make a few bucks.

[kurto]

Yeah... that sounds pretty sh*tty. (for the record, I don't mind the MTV show. That is, I think its stupid, but if teens want to embarrass and humiliate themselves for money or to be on TV... that's there choice. If you've ever watched Spring Break or Real World, you'll see that college students don't need a lot of encouragement to do stupid things. lol)

I've only seen Supersize Me and the first episode of this show. I am wary knowing what you found, but I don't necessarily think he has to be insincere. There is a possibility that he was a shallow dude who could have matured and learned from the experience. I've certainly met people who were real jerks when they were younger and became decent people over the years. (My brother went went from being a slutty do-nothing drug addict in his 20s and now he's a born again, happily married and runs his own business. So people can turn a new leaf.)

Regarding the minimum wage... I agree with you. It should be linked to the cost of living. I think it also demonstrates how hard it is to rise above poverty. When while just trying to survive, you're constantly spiralling into debt, it would be very difficult to just get your head above water much less 'make it.'

Whether he was sincere or not, seeing the show really made me appreciate what I've got.

[slamdunkpro]

This guy is a Michael Moore wannabe. He’s a limousine liberal who wants all kinds of social programs at taxpayer expense. He used to exploit homeless people then sell the videos.

Second – raising the minimum wage leads to a reduction in small business and more unemployment.

[MMMMMM]

If the minimum wage were to be raised significantly, there will be fewer jobs. So it's a trade-off.

Very few people even try to make a living on minimum wage, and it's NOT a living wage. Minimum wage jobs are usually held by students, recent graduates, part-timers, etc. For them, it can be a useful small income, and the job perhaps a stepping stone to better things.

It's funny you should base your take on what it's like to try to rise from being broke, on some show, which profiles a few people trying to do that on minimum wage. Well if you've never done it yourself I guess that's all you have to go on. The first question to ask is, why are these people trying to get out of being broke by working for minimum wage?

Having had the experiences of both being broke and working for minimum wage, I assure you I did not try to get ahead by my minimum wage job. I QUIT that POS job (bussing tables in a Pizza Hut at age 19) and taught myself a trade (cleaning windows), which wasn't that hard to do. And it only cost a couple hundred in start-up costs (like back in 1981). I then went out and got some customers, built up a clientele, and coasted merrily along with a profitable window-cleaning route, working my own part-time hours, until some years later when I decided to go to school for computer programming. Cleaning windows gave me plenty of free time to read and do other things--and I did love my free time--plus I could make ends meet without knocking myself out too much, but...eventually it was time to move on.

There are many ways out of being broke: working for yourself, even if it's mowing lawns or cleaning houses, is much better than a minimum wage job. Or you can take the temporary route of working two jobs or lots of overtime to save some money. Or you can be a good and competent employee at whatever your job is, and get yourself promoted, even in a McDonald's. Or you can go out and find a better-paying job. And what the hell, today you can even do it playing poker if you are smart and diligent.

It does suck to be broke and for a short while it can be a hard bitch to climb out of it, BUT...it isn't a life sentence or anything. I've been there a few times in my life. I doubt if raising the minimum wage would have a net effect of really helping people much in this regard. The minimum wage will never be raised to a true living wage so what's the point? Save it for students and part-timers, etc. They can use it. And businesses can use the cheap labor.

Nobody in America has to be stuck at minimum wage all their lives. And if businesses have to pay too much more to get help (especially mom & pop type businesses) they'll just decide to work some overtime themselves that summer instead of hiring another student.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
If the minimum wage were to be raised significantly, there will be fewer jobs. So it's a trade-off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nearly every salaried job out there has yearly adjustments to the cost of living. I've been working for 15 years and have never NOT held a job that didn't include a yearly wage adjustment.

Meanwhile, the minimum wage has not risen in 7 years.

Furthermore... some studies have shown that your statement is wrong:

[ QUOTE ]
This unified view was challenged by empirical research done by David Card and Alan Krueger. In their 1997 book Myth and Measurement: The New Economics of the Minimum Wage (ISBN 0-691-04823-1), they argued the negative employment effects of minimum-wage laws to be minimal if not non-existent (at least for the United States). For example, they look at the 1992 increase in New Jersey's minimum wage, the 1988 rise in California's minimum wage, and the 1990-91 increases in the federal minimum wage. In each case, Card and Kreuger present evidence ostensibly showing that increases in the minimum wage led to increases in pay, but no loss in jobs. That is, it appears that the demand for low-wage workers is inelastic. [ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
Very few people even try to make a living on minimum wage, and it's NOT a living wage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't you show how many people try to make a living at minimum wage. I suspect you're guessing. In the program, the host was working with other adults who were all working minimum wage jobs to support their families. Furthermore, at least according to this program, the Minimum wage was established precisely to be a minimum living wage.

And again... I think you're guessing. A quick search found this:
[ QUOTE ]
The number of jobs where wages were below what a worker would need to support a family of four above the poverty line also grew between 1979 and 1999. In 1999, 26.8% of the workforce earned poverty-level wages, an increase from 23.7% in 1979.


[/ QUOTE ]

On top of that, I have several state sites that SPECIFICALLY refer to it as "living wage."

[ QUOTE ]
It's funny you should base your take on what it's like to try to rise from being broke, on some show, which profiles a few people trying to do that on minimum wage. Well if you've never done it yourself I guess that's all you have to go on. The first question to ask is, why are these people trying to get out of being broke by working for minimum wage?

[/ QUOTE ]

Many people have no choice. I find it amusing when people think that there are always better jobs available to anyone who wants them if they only look for them.

Your situation is not necessarily the same as others. You took time off and spent a few hundred dollars to learn a trade. Some people don't have the luxury of taking time off, they don't have a few hundred dollars to spend because they're already in debt, etc. They may live in areas where they don't have the opportunities you do. etc.

Everyone doesn't have the skills/brains/opportunities/options/education that you do. Some people have to take the crappy job that is available to them. The idea is that these people working these jobs shouldn't be below poverty.

[ QUOTE ]
Or you can take the temporary route of working two jobs or lots of overtime to save some money

[/ QUOTE ] Why do assume people working near minimum wage aren't already doing this.

[kurto]

So,.... you saw the show or not?

[ QUOTE ]
This guy is a Michael Moore wannabe. He’s a limousine liberal who wants all kinds of social programs at taxpayer expense.

[/ QUOTE ]

He suggested no social programs in the show (nor in Supersize Me) other then suggesting that that after 7 years, perhaps the Min Wage should be adjusted as the min wage, after adjusting for inflation, has actually gone down.

[ QUOTE ]
Second – raising the minimum wage leads to a reduction in small business and more unemployment.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've just read two studies: one academic and one done by the city of Chicago that have shown this to be untrue. The Chicago one was done specifically to be sure that they weren't hurting their economy by increasing their minimum wage. They concluded this is a myth.

[The once and future king]

[ QUOTE ]
Second – raising the minimum wage leads to a reduction in small business and more unemployment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh, rightist myth NO 100,000,000,000.

In the majority of cases where minimim wage has been introduced there has been a positive effect on the economy mostly thorough increased money supply and thus increased demand for products and services.

There are many many large scale employers who pay minimum wage and the aggregate net effect of raising the minimum wage is a transfer of wealth from share holders bank accounts into the pockets of the low waged and then the tills of local stores and small firms and enterprises.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Sigh, rightist myth NO 100,000,000,000.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it is exhausting. Especially because they all repeat them verbatim endlessly. It literally took me 2 minutes to find the recent Chicago study that dispelled this (at least in their study). I found a more general study that presented both arguments and seemed to indicate that it was inconclusive.

I often wonder how many people bother to look into a subject themselves rathar then just repeat the party myths bandied about.

I used to frequent a yahoo political board. We did an experiment once where, at night, someone posted a Freeper column on a current issue. The next day, someone started a thread on that subject. And we watched the responses by the more 'sheepish' members of the right. It was amazing how many of them held the exact same view, made the exact same argument as the article. Furthermore, they used key phrases that were right out of the article.

Though the evidence was circumstantial, it seemed pretty obvious that many of them read the same articles and simply regurgitated verbatim what they had read.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
If the minimum wage were to be raised significantly, there will be fewer jobs. So it's a trade-off.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Nearly every salaried job out there has yearly adjustments to the cost of living. I've been working for 15 years and have never NOT held a job that didn't include a yearly wage adjustment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker dealer does not have an adjustment.

[ QUOTE ]
Meanwhile, the minimum wage has not risen in 7 years.

Furthermore... some studies have shown that your statement is wrong:

[/ QUOTE ]

My statement included the word significantly. I'm not talking about minor increases.

[ QUOTE ]
Many people have no choice. I find it amusing when people think that there are always better jobs available to anyone who wants them if they only look for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. How ironic coming from you who apparently have never worked a minimum wage job or been broke in your life.

When I lived in Maine, in the Autumn of '79, I couldn't find a job AT ALL. As I said, Washingtom County had about the highest unemployment in the entire country (and maybe still does). So I dug clams in the icy mud flats and sold them to the local clam company. I was lucky to make around $25 a day. And some days in early winter it was impossible to even do that due to the weather. And your hands got numb even with the insulated waterproof gloves.

Finally I found the job on construction: a bust-ass, minimum wage laborer's job. I hitchhiked and walked ten miles each way to work IN THE COLDEST FRIGGIN' WINTER YOU EVER SAW. And that's how I bought groceries and did laundry too: carrying a great sack on my back for ten miles each way. And often I had to walk much or most of the way--sometimes even the full 20 miles in a day--as well as loading and carting around bricks and mortar for the masons all day.

[ QUOTE ]
Your situation is not necessarily the same as others. You took time off and spent a few hundred dollars to learn a trade. Some people don't have the luxury of taking time off, they don't have a few hundred dollars to spend because they're already in debt, etc. They may live in areas where they don't have the opportunities you do. etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

I learned half the art of window-cleaning on my own time while I was working bussing tables. It only took around $200 to start. Hell it might have even been less at first although I added equipment as my clientele grew.

Young people today could do similarly. There are lots of windows that need to be cleaned, lots of lawns that need to be mowed, lots of leaves that need to be raked, lots of painting that needs to be done.

Before the Pizaa Hut and window-cleaning, when I lived in rural Maine, the unemployment rate was around the highest in the entire country (Washington County). I had a minimum wage job and come summer (seasonal work in a fish factory) I was able to work 84 hrs./week to save money on it. Which is exactly what I did. Which I did WHILE WALKING AND HITCHHIKING TEN MILES EACH WAY BACK AND FORTH TO WORK EVERY DAY. This was after a winter/spring of being close to broke and barely getting by on another minimum wage job at age 18.

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone doesn't have the skills/brains/opportunities/options/education that you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, how much education/skills/education did it take learn to squeegee storefront windows? I taught myself a bit, practicing cheap for a few stores while working bussing tables, then saw I could get more stores as clients so I quit my job. No rocket science or silver spoon there. You're barking up the wrong tree:)

[ QUOTE ]
Some people have to take the crappy job that is available to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is exactly what I did when I was 18 and part of 19. I worked as a mason-tender on contruction, a roofer's helper, a fish-fileting-machine cleaner, and later in a Pizza Hut in another part of the country bussing tables (and then I quit to do the window-cleaning route thing). The point is, nobody has to stay stuck in minimum wage FOREVER.

[ QUOTE ]
The idea is that these people working these jobs shouldn't be below poverty.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's the "idea". The truth is that unless they take some initiative to get out of poverty it isn't going to happen. And you can't just legislate away poverty by doing things like raising the minimum wage.


[ QUOTE ]
Or you can take the temporary route of working two jobs or lots of overtime to save some money
----------------------------------------------------------
Why do assume people working near minimum wage aren't already doing this.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you work 80 hours a week for a while and live frugally you will save money even at minimum wage. Something young people are quite capable of doing (I did it so I know).

Kurto, you seem to believe the standard liberal class-warfare dogma and myth. I guess that's what they teach in college. But it just isn't true. Yes it greatly sucks being broke or earning very little but diligence and initiative will take care of that in time. Nothing different than when our ancestors came to this country and had to bust their butts for a while and live frugally. The only thing different is that it's a lot easier to get out of poverty now than it was say a couple hundred years ago.

Why am I telling you all this? Because I think you're bright enough to consider rethinking some of your preconceptions (about a place you've never been), and I guess because it does me some good personally to review all this. It makes me appreciate poker a lot more and makes me ashamed that I spend money regularly on fairly expensive food. Time to reevaluate: I'm not going to spend another nickel on anything I don't have to for quite a while. I could use the practice and discipline again.

The cure for poverty is just this: I'll link it in my following post. It's truer than you might guess and is beautiful as well. And I'm ashamed to think that today I have slipped so far today from the timeless and priceless principles I used to practice and hold dear when I was broke and truly struggling.

[MMMMMM]

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/loa/bf1758.htm

[MMMMMM]

YES raising the minimum wage somewhat may not have a bad effect on the overall economy. That isn't the point. The point is, the more you raise the minimum wage (especially beyond a certain point), the fewer jobs will be offered--especially by Mom & Pop type operations.

I agree, it may not be readily apparent if the wage is only slightly raised--but raise it from where it is now to a full "living wage" and lots of small biz owners will just work more overtime themselves rather than shell out that kind of money for more menial labor.

If I ran an ice-cream stand or pizza parlor, I sure as hell wouldn't hire that extra employee I had been considering if it was a marginal decision in the first and THEN they raised the minimum wage substantially. Screw it, I'd just do the extra work myself.

Also, how do you put SO MUCH faith in one study? Jeez. Studies can err, you know--or be conducted by those with an agenda who find some way to influence or slant things. That's not unknown in this world, you know.

Just think supply and demand and you will see that there has to be an inverse relationship to at least some extent.

If you DOUBLED the minimum wage, do you really think there would be just as many minimum wage jobs available? How about TRIPLED it? So you see there has to be an inverse relkationship in number of jobs and level minimum wage--at least to some extent and at some wage level.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Poker dealer does not have an adjustment.



[/ QUOTE ]

I've never been a poker dealer. I said every job I'VE held.

[ QUOTE ]
Heh. How ironic coming from you who apparently have never worked a minimum wage job or been broke in your life.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're misusing the word ironic. Because I've never been broke doesn't mean I don't know people worse off then myself, it doesn't mean I can't see and read about the plight of others, I can read studies, documentaries, etc.

[ QUOTE ]
So I dug clams in the icy mud flats and sold them to the local clam company. I was lucky to make around $25 a day. And some days in early winter it was impossible to even do that due to the weather. And your hands got numb even with the insulated waterproof gloves.

Finally I found the job on construction: a bust-ass, minimum wage laborer's job. I hitchhiked and walked ten miles each way to work IN THE COLDEST FRIGGIN' WINTER YOU EVER SAW. And that's how I bought groceries and did laundry too: carrying a great sack on my back for ten miles each way. And often I had to walk much or most of the way--sometimes even the full 20 miles in a day--as well as loading and carting around bricks and mortar for the masons all day.


[/ QUOTE ]

Now imagine doing all that while having to support a wife with 2 kids.

The fact that you had a rough period and overcame it does not mean that your experience is possible for everyone.

BTW- Just for a shared experience... I too worked at Pizza Hut. Though I was a pizza chef (yes... they called us chefs lol) We made probably 1/3 of what the waitresses made. Our restaurant was sexist though... all the waitstaff (except for the manager, of course) were women. Men belonged in the kitchen. Now that is ironic!)

[ QUOTE ]
If you work 80 hours a week for a while and live frugally you will save money even at minimum wage. Something young people are quite capable of doing (I did it so I know).


[/ QUOTE ]

You keep thinking your experience as an 18 years is applicable to everyone. Were you paying rent, trying to clothe and feed children, paying medical bills, etc?

And having to work 80 hours a week to survive.. is hardly a living.

[ QUOTE ]
Kurto, you seem to believe the standard liberal class-warfare dogma and myth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now who's being ironic.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess that's what they teach in college

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[ QUOTE ]
But it just isn't true. Yes it greatly sucks being broke or earning very little but diligence and initiative will take care of that in time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess it must be true.

You repeat faulty assertions, and now you accuse me of all sorts of rubbish.

You claim its not a living wage, various states DEFINE it as a living wage.

You say hardly anyone other then a few part timers and college students work those jobs... our government showed "In 1999, 26.8% of the workforce earned poverty-level wages, an increase from 23.7% in 1979."

You keep saying wrong things and then accusing me of not knowing how it is.

You take YOUR personal experience and then conclude what was true for you as a single 18 year must be true for everyone else.

You repeat the RW myth that increasing a minimum wage will hurt small businesses and decrease employment... when recent studies have shown the opposite.

yeah... the millions of people in poverty are all lazy and just need to learn to mow some lawns and squeegee some windows and they'll make a decent living.

come on.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
The point is, the more you raise the minimum wage (especially beyond a certain point), the fewer jobs will be offered--especially by Mom & Pop type operations.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're missing the results of the studies. No such thing happened the last times they raised it.

Furthermore... you say "especially beyond a certain point"... well currently, the minimum wage has GONE DOWN since it hasn't kept up with inflation/cost of living. For you to argue against the Min Wage being tied to the Cost of living.. you're actually arguing that people should earn LESS money each year.

Sheesh, you're exhausting.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, it may not be readily apparent if the wage is only slightly raised--but raise it from where it is now to a full "living wage"

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't min wage currently below the poverty level?

[ QUOTE ]
Also, how do you put SO MUCH faith in one study? Jeez.

[/ QUOTE ]

I referred to two studies and the other poster in this thread referred to a third.

You on the hand are putting faith in unproven dogma.

[ QUOTE ]
Studies can err, you know--or be conducted by those with an agenda who find some way to influence or slant things.

[/ QUOTE ] The city of Chicago's agenda was to improve their economy. They wanted to insure that a min wage increase wasn't detrimental.

Do you consider that the people who oppose the minwage increase might have their own agenda?

[ QUOTE ]
If you DOUBLED the minimum wage, do you really think there would be just as many minimum wage jobs available? How about TRIPLED it?

[/ QUOTE ]

And here you go nutty... most people suggest keeping the minwage in line with inflation/SOL increases... you're now pretending that people are suggesting something ridiculous, when in reality, the suggestion is to keep the minwage where its been at in REAL DOLLAR value.

You're actually fighting for a diminishing minimum wage.

[MMMMMM]

We're crossing meanings here.

I don't think it's a big deal if the minimum wage is raised on some sort of indexed scale based on things like average salary increases or cost of living.

I'm just saying that raising it has an inverse relationship with number of jobs offered --which may not show up with just a small indexed raise or whatever, but WOULD show up if the minimum wage was boosted to like $12/hr. or whatever might be considered a "living wage".

If you agree with that, I don't think we disagree.

All that said, I think there probably shouldn't even be a minimum wage. But that's another topic.

[tolbiny]

If this interests you Try reading "Nickled and Dimed"- about a journalist who attempts to find work (over a year period) without using any credentials. I believe she used her High school diploma- but its been a while since i have read it.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it's a big deal if the minimum wage is raised on some sort of indexed scale based on things like average salary increases or cost of living.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol Then we are in agreement. I have never suggested anything more then this.

[ QUOTE ]
All that said, I think there probably shouldn't even be a minimum wage. But that's another topic.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point of a min wage is to keep workers, at the very least, around the poverty line (as a minimum) and, just as important, to prevent exploitation.

I have no problem with this. I don't believe people or businesses are so altruistic that having laws to prevent exploitation aren't unnecessary.

[slamdunkpro]

[ QUOTE ]
So,.... you saw the show or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I saw it.

[ QUOTE ]
He suggested no social programs in the show

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said he did on the show I'm basing that on several interviews he's given.

[ QUOTE ]
I've just read two studies: one academic and one done by the city of Chicago

[/ QUOTE ]

Well here in the real world - I'm here to tell you that as a small business owner MMMMMM's got it right if the minimum wage is raised I'll just have to put a few hours of overtime in and not hire a summer student. I know a lot of real world business people who think the same.

Dan Akroyd said it best in ghost busters " You've never worked in the private sector - they expect resuts!"

(The You is for all those Ivory tower academics who do these studies - mostly with a taxpayer grant)

[slamdunkpro]

See my response to Kurto

[JackWhite]

[ QUOTE ]
Well here in the real world - I'm here to tell you that as a small business owner MMMMMM's got it right if the minimum wage is raised I'll just have to put a few hours of overtime in and not hire a summer student.

[/ QUOTE ]

The minumum wage has not been raised for several years. In real dollars, it is worth a lot less than at any point in recent history. Should it never be raised? If inflation turns 6 bucks an hour into the equivelant of 4 bucks an hour, isn't the minimum wage being lowered every year? (lowered in terms of its expense to the business owner)

[slamdunkpro]

[ QUOTE ]
If inflation turns 6 bucks an hour into the equivelant of 4 bucks an hour, isn't the minimum wage being lowered every year? (lowered in terms of its expense to the business owner)

[/ QUOTE ]

No, because my busness expenses are affected at the same rate. If I charge $100 for something I get $100. The only way I can get more is to raise prices.

Besides this is an irrevelant academic argument - $5.15 today is $5.15 today What it was 3 years or 3 days ago dosn't matter unless you have a time machine.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Well here in the real world -

[/ QUOTE ]

I forgot that the city of Chicago wasn't real. You're too funny.

[ QUOTE ]
MMMMMM's got it right if the minimum wage is raised I'll just have to put a few hours of overtime in and not hire a summer student. I know a lot of real world business people who think the same.


[/ QUOTE ]

And they've also shown that when people have more money, the poor spend (and don't save their money) and it returns to the economy... and small businesses like yours can do more business.

[ QUOTE ]
Dan Akroyd said it best in ghost busters " You've never worked in the private sector - they expect resuts!"


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes... quoting Ghostbusters makes a strong case.

[JackWhite]

[ QUOTE ]
No, because my busness expenses are affected at the same rate. If I charge $100 for something I get $100. The only way I can get more is to raise prices.

Besides this is an irrevelant academic argument - $5.15 today is $5.15 today What it was 3 years or 3 days ago dosn't matter unless you have a time machine.


[/ QUOTE ]

It is not an irrevelant academic argument. If the minimum wage was put in place to assure people a certain minimum standard of living, and due to inflation, that standard of living is reduced, then the original purpose has been defeated to some extent.

If inflation increases, but your wage does not, you are getting less than you were in the past. It has nothing to do with a time machine.

[slamdunkpro]

[ QUOTE ]
And they've also shown that when people have more money, the poor spend (and don't save their money) and it returns to the economy... and small businesses like yours can do more business.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK here's some sad facts for you - I used to run a bar in one of the worst areas of Baltimore. What do the poor (and I mean poor) spend their money on? Lotto, Keno, cigarettes and booze. What's left over might go to rent, then they have no money and eat out of dumpsters.

They may have to eat out of my dumpsters, but they get those lotto tickets every day.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes... quoting Ghostbusters makes a strong case. {quote]

If the shoe fits.....

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MMMMMM's got it right if the minimum wage is raised I'll just have to put a few hours of overtime in and not hire a summer student. I know a lot of real world business people who think the same.

[/ QUOTE ]




And they've also shown that when people have more money, the poor spend (and don't save their money) and it returns to the economy... and small businesses like yours can do more business.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure that money may return to the economy. That doesn't mean it creates the same number of minimum wage jobs, though.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
It is not an irrevelant academic argument. If the minimum wage was put in place to assure people a certain minimum standard of living, and due to inflation, that standard of living is reduced, then the original purpose has been defeated to some extent.


[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly he does not understand this concept.

Just be greatful he's not your boss.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
OK here's some sad facts for you - I used to run a bar in one of the worst areas of Baltimore. What do the poor (and I mean poor) spend their money on? Lotto, Keno, cigarettes and booze. What's left over might go to rent, then they have no money and eat out of dumpsters.


[/ QUOTE ]

Cool... approx 26% of the country (as of 1999) lives at the poverty line and you're generalizing about all of them. I'm sure your experiences in your bar are enough to generalize about all people who make their living from min wage jobs.

You've convinced me!

[ QUOTE ]
If the shoe fits.....

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm starting to believe you wear your shots on your hands.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Sure that money may return to the economy. That doesn't mean it creates the same number of minimum wage jobs, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

You keep guessing... while on the other hand, they've studied this and shown that PRECISELY what happens is more jobs are created.

This is why the middle class taxcuts were so successful in the 90s. Trickle down is BS. Trickle UP is what works. The people with less disposeable income spend money when they get it. With a large mass of people increase their income and spend more, it is the best way to improve the economy and this includes the job market.

I believe another poster linked to a recent study that confirmed this theory. Not to mention we saw it nationwide in the 90s.

[slamdunkpro]

and what exactly do you do?

[kurto]

I am a director in Business and Legal affairs who manages a team who do licensing and rights analysis for multiple television networks several television channels.

I have also taught improv workshops on the side for fun and extra cash.

I can't imagine what you think my job has to do with you gross generalizations about roughly 25% of our nation.

[MMMMMM]

Could be, kurto: I'll not say its impossible. But you must agree there is a limit or range. For instance if the minimum wage was $30 an hour I'll bet there'd be a helluva lot fewer minimum wage jobs. And the ceiling is probably a lot lower than that.

I know that I and my partner in the cleaning business (years later) decided to let go a very good worker just because we figured out we were paying him too much. So we did the extra work ourselves for a while after we fired him. So the small business scenario is not baseless--and apparently the other business owner in this thread concurs.

[MMMMMM]

Just a quick question, kurto, in case I missed it elsewhere: is that 25% figure: the heads of households (or singles) who are living below the federal poverty guidelines--or is it the figure for the people working for minimum wage. Because if it is just the percentage working at minimum wage, that must include an awful lot of high-school and college students, part-time moms, people living at home with their parents, etc. Big difference.

[kurto]

There are certainly limits. If suddenly minimum wage went to $30 an hour, it would be disastrous.

But all these arguments are moot since I've never seen any push for anything more then keeping the min wage tied to cost of living increases.

Some businesses no doubt might have trouble even with minor increases. But on a larger scale, the economy (and job market) has been positively effected.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Just a quick question, kurto, in case I missed it elsewhere: is that 25% figure: the heads of households (or singles) who are living below the federal poverty guidelines--or is it the figure for the people working for minimum wage.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have that detailed a breakdown. Here's the quote I got- (It was on one of the multiple sites I searched under minimum wage trying to find some data... unfortunately I didn't save the link..)

[ QUOTE ]
The number of jobs where wages were below what a worker would need to support a family of four above the poverty line also grew between 1979 and 1999. In 1999, 26.8% of the workforce earned poverty-level wages, an increase from 23.7% in 1979.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Because if it is just the percentage working at minimum wage, that must include an awful lot of high-school and college students, part-time moms, people living at home with their parents, etc. Big difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if 50% of these people were students, part-time moms, etc... we'd still be talking about 10s of millions of people.

[Nicholasp27]

[ QUOTE ]

If I ran an ice-cream stand or pizza parlor, I sure as hell wouldn't hire that extra employee I had been considering if it was a marginal decision in the first and THEN they raised the minimum wage substantially. Screw it, I'd just do the extra work myself.


[/ QUOTE ]

u obviously aren't an entrepreneur

u want the least skilled worker possible doing each job...

and re: economics

don't u think your opportunity cost is WAY higher than minimum wage? if not, then you're not a successful business person


NO entrepreneur would want to work overtime serving customers when he can pay employees to serve them...entrepreneurs work on the processes and leave the unskilled work to low wage employees

[Warchant88]

I'm enjoying this because MMMMMM and kurto are my two favorite posters on this site. It's like Hannity and Colmes, but not crappy.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I ran an ice-cream stand or pizza parlor, I sure as hell wouldn't hire that extra employee I had been considering if it was a marginal decision in the first and THEN they raised the minimum wage substantially. Screw it, I'd just do the extra work myself.






[/ QUOTE ]u obviously aren't an entrepreneur

u want the least skilled worker possible doing each job...

and re: economics

don't u think your opportunity cost is WAY higher than minimum wage? if not, then you're not a successful business person

NO entrepreneur would want to work overtime serving customers when he can pay employees to serve them...entrepreneurs work on the processes and leave the unskilled work to low wage employees

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Nicholas have YOU ever run a SMALL business? When my partner and I did, we DID do some of the menial work ourselves to save money and cut corners--and because we were pretty damn efficient at it (compared to others who worked for us). We also sometimes HAD to do it, on occasions when our guy(s) didn't show up for work at all. So what you're saying does apply somewhat but only to a point.

If a SMALL business owner can't do nearly every person's job who works for him, better and faster than the employees can do it themselves, then that entrepreneur probably doesn't know enough about his own business and doesn't truly know it from the ground up (obviously this applies more to SMALL businesses than to large businesses).

As I posted above, we once fired a good worker because after some time we figured out that we were paying him too much. We took up the slack ourselves until we found someone who would do the work cheaper. By the way this was contract labor not an hourly wage but the same principle could apply given the right hourly wage and work conditions. Besides, it won't necessarily kill the owner(s) to put in some 70 hour weeks instead of 55 hour weeks for a while. That can at times actually be better than making a poor hiring decision.

[Nicholasp27]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I ran an ice-cream stand or pizza parlor, I sure as hell wouldn't hire that extra employee I had been considering if it was a marginal decision in the first and THEN they raised the minimum wage substantially. Screw it, I'd just do the extra work myself.






[/ QUOTE ]u obviously aren't an entrepreneur

u want the least skilled worker possible doing each job...

and re: economics

don't u think your opportunity cost is WAY higher than minimum wage? if not, then you're not a successful business person

NO entrepreneur would want to work overtime serving customers when he can pay employees to serve them...entrepreneurs work on the processes and leave the unskilled work to low wage employees

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Nicholas have YOU ever run a SMALL business? When my partner and I did, we DID do some of the menial work ourselves to save money and cut corners--and because we were pretty damn efficient at it (compared to others who worked for us). We also sometimes HAD to do it, on occasions when our guy(s) didn't show up for work at all. So what you're saying does apply somewhat but only to a point.

If a SMALL business owner can't do nearly every person's job who works for him, better and faster than the employees can do it themselves, then that entrepreneur probably doesn't know enough about his own business and doesn't truly know it from the ground up (obviously this applies more to SMALL businesses than to large businesses).

As I posted above, we once fired a good worker because after some time we figured out that we were paying him too much. We took up the slack ourselves until we found someone who would do the work cheaper. By the way this was contract labor not an hourly wage but the same principle could apply given the right hourly wage and work conditions. Besides, it won't necessarily kill the owner(s) to put in some 70 hour weeks instead of 55 hour weeks for a while. That can at times actually be better than making a poor hiring decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, and there is more to it than that

you do have to do the work yourself in the beginning, as you can't be the expert and improve it unless you know how to do those jobs...

HOWEVER

that is SEPARATE from minimum wage increases...

you may hire less at first to get it off the ground and running, while also learning yourself so you can make more improvements...

but if you are a true entrepreneur (and entrepreneur is NOT defined as someone who starts and runs a small business...it's a methodology and philosophy)

taking up some slack because someone doesn't show up or as a bandaid during a gap while finding a replacement is also SEPARATE from minimum wage increases


the fact of the matter is: even if minimum wage increases, minimum wage is still the LEAST you can pay someone...therefore you can't just replace those employees with cheaper labor...and substituting urself in is not a good economic replacement...again, opportunity cost

[MMMMMM]

Hi Nicholas,

I agree with you if the increase in minimum wage is slight or merely indexed to inflation perhaps. But if we're talking about a major leap--like to a true living wage--then some small business owners would take up some of the slack themselves--at least for a while.

Also, to get back to your argument: one thing to consider is that it can be a pain and a lot of work to grow a business. For various reasons opportunity cost isn't always a clear-cut issue.

For instance, what if you have a crew of workers in a service industry like lawn care or window-cleaning. Is your time always best spent going out to get new customers or doing expansionary activities? Not necessarily when you consider the overhead you may incur and capital outlay that may be required, and the fact that with more employees come more headaches too. Maybe for a while you would be better off trying to find ways to streamline your current operation, and increase its profitability.

Also, some businesses you can only grow so large before it requires that you undertake a major overhaul in your approach and structure if you wish to expand much further.

If you don't want to go deeply in debt and prefer instead a pay-as-you-go approach, there are additional limits to the speed at which you can expand. When I had a service busines that was how I operated.

All in all you make some good points and I'm just trying to show that it isn't completely cut-and-dried. Also I hope we haven't been talking past each other because of the difference in effect of merely raising the minimum wage to an index, or raising it to a "true" living wage.

An entrepreneur who does nothing but seek better opportunities (and perhaps clients as well;-)) had better have quite the cash cow business or a lot of financing/backing as a general rule. If you are in a lower profit margin type of business or a very labor-intensive business, I don't think the owner can always do things that way--at least not until he passes the invisible boundary from start-up/small to very well-established and some serious size. And every time you expand you have to keep hiring and eventually that means hiring managers and people to manage your managers or foremen, etc. Again there are often limits to the speed at which you can expand soundly unless you made a high initial investment in the business or are willing to go heavily in debt.

Thanks for your thoughts; I don't think I disagree with you as much as it might sound.

[Nicholasp27]

yeah, i'm not informed on what a 'true living wage' would be these days, but i do feel that min wage staying the same for multiple years regardless of inflation is bad...if cumulative inflation since the last time it was raised is say 14%, then i say raise min wage 14%

[slamdunkpro]

Just curious.

So, how much time have you spent in the getto/slums? Ever live or work there?

[kurto]

Never.

Its irrelevent.

People living on poverty wages don't necessarily even live in ghettos and/or slums.

I feel like you're trying to get at something... just make your argument.

[slamdunkpro]

Again - just curious.