My introduction hand - are they slowplaying trips?

[Mercantides]

Hi all,

I've been lurking in this forum for a while and I thought I would make my introduction with a recent hand. I picked this hand because I had a hard time putting my opponents on specific hands but my intuition ended up being almost correct.

I had less than 10 hands of history on BB and MP1 but both had seen almost every flop. I'm interested in what hands you put BB and MP1 on. I'll post what I was thinking during the hand when I post the results. Also, feel free to criticize my play.

Please don't flame me for posting a new topic without any post history; I promise it will be the last topic I start for awhile.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP3 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB folds, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 caps</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (11 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls.

River: (17 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 29 BB

[El Cuchara]

It doesn't look to me like anyone is slowplaying. there's a preflop raise, cap on flop, bet out on turn and cap on river. If that's your def. of slow play, i wonder what you consider aggression /images/graemlins/grin.gif
I question whether calling the pre-flop raise was wise, I guess if you thought they were ultra loose than it's justifiable. You boated on the turn, so I guess it worked out. almost wonder if bb played Kx and boated also.

[blackize]

First, don't appologize for starting a topic that has content. You can however appologize if you are starting online poker is rigged posts.

As for the hand, it isnt a slowplay if they cap the flop. Given that there are 5 hands you need to worry about here and 2 of them are highly unlikely. KK, 77, K7, K2 and K5 of which KK and K5 are very unlikely. I think it is far more probable that one of these guys has AK or KQ and is overplaying it.

The flop cap is very odd. The BB bets out and MP1 raises you 3 bet then MP1 caps. Then on the turn the BB bets out and MP1 just calls all bets which I find odd since he capped the flop. I wont give them credit for having a hand that beats yours on the turn since they both go passive when they should realize that if they do have a monster they will be getting paid off on it. The fact that they suddenly come alive on the river is odd as well maybe K2 or 22 for someone here?

[moot]

[ QUOTE ]
I picked this hand because I had a hard time putting my opponents on specific hands but my intuition ended up being almost correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

You never try to put your opponent on a specific hand, but rather on a range of hands. You then analyze this range against your own holding and the percentage of the hands you beat in relation to the pot size (and also your chance to improve your own hand if you are indeed behind). This is all a very rough estimate, of course.

You postflop play throughout the hand was well done. I don't like the preflop call, though. I don't think there are enough limpers or cold colders in the hand to warrant a cold call here. Though as always a lot of this depends on the tightness of the blinds and various reads, etc.

Personally I would like at least two more limpers or cold callers in the pot before I call here. At the very least one more.

Btw, did the villian have K2?

[El Cuchara]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think there are enough limpers or cold colders in the hand to warrant a cold call here. Though as always a lot of this depends on the tightness of the blinds and various reads, etc.

Personally I would like at least two more limpers or cold callers in the pot before I call here. At the very least one more.


[/ QUOTE ]

not to jack this thread, but could you expand on this. Is it because you want the other calls for pot odds, or are you saying he should've reraised/folded. just wanted to clarify

[Mathieu]

It seems like MP1 has AA and BB has Kx. From BB's action I would guess his kicker is a deuce. Otherwise, his play on the turn does not make much sense(no 3 bet).

[badbill7]

havent read any post yet. given looseness of your bb put him on only two hands really ak or kg. even bad players dont usually go this nuts with nothing. guessing he got scared when second heart came up,hence the call on turn instead of reraise. play seemed ok to me

[Deamon2]

el cuchara

it's because of the $$ in the pot. Reraising here would not be a good play, as you're really only looking at set value with your 5's.

[ClaytonN]

It is strange how BB is just calling along the whole way and then suddenly wakes up firing on the river

I put MP1 on a somewhat strong king that has kicker issues. Either that, or AA.

BB is harder to put a read on, but it looks like 77. That's one of the lines I would have taken with that. Either that, or he has a strong king.

The only critique I can offer is that you should not have cold-called preflop. 55 is a hand where you limp in loose passive games and call a raise from the BB, but never a cold call. You can raise this sometimes, but it's game dependant (weak-tight blinds, LP, etc).

I like how you played it after the flop, though.

[silkyslim]

gotta jam this. They might have caught there trip kings but that is just not good enough to take you. I like the line

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
55 is a hand where you limp in loose passive games and call a raise from the BB, but never a cold call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I cold call small pocket pairs often and know many winning players who do so as well. Of course it depends on the # of callers before you.

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
55 is a hand where you limp in loose passive games and call a raise from the BB, but never a cold call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I cold call small pocket pairs often and know many winning players who do so as well. Of course it depends on the # of callers before you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not criticizing you or anything, but just to add, this is a fairly loose preflop call.

[mlb3zr]

BB looks like 77 trying to keep everyone around, with his stop n go on all streets business. Although he could have K7, and it's remotely possible he has K5 or KK. One would expect a 3 bet pf w KK, but he's on the blind and stranger things have happened.

As for MP1, looks a bit like he can't let go of AA. I can't imagine AK or KQ not raising this turn. And I don't really see QQ or less capping the flop, but I suppose it's possible.

[mlb3zr]

and I forgot to mention that I would not call preflop without one or two more cold callers before me. unless the table is spectacularly loose and you can reliably expect a bunch of cold calling behind you. I suppose in the particular case if you know the blinds are loose, it's okay, but my point is, I want probably at least 4 other people involved before I cold call with small pairs.

[ClaytonN]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. I cold call small pocket pairs often and know many winning players who do so as well. Of course it depends on the # of callers before you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, duh. But it went raise, CC, and then hero CC's. That's not enough CC's to make it mathematically an +EV call in a new game.

I will coldcall 55 if I'm in LP and it's been coldcalled 3-4 times, but not immediately after a raiser.

[Iq75]

It looks like BB's got Kx and MP1 AA or AK.

It sucks if BB had K2, K5 or K7, but that's just poker, i think that you are ahead here more than 50 %, so i would have played it just the way you did.

Edit after reading the other posts:
I think that whitout a solid read of MP1, coldcalling that raise is no good, cause the lack of previous limpers and only 1 coldcaller before you.

For BB 77 is also possible, but if i was him, i would have capped the flop whit that. Because BB stopped in the turn and 3 - betted the river, the possibility of K2 is bigger. I dont think anymore that MP1 has AK, cause he would have been more aggressive whit that on the turn and the river. And cause MP1 calls the river, you need to be ahead only 33 % of the time.

wow, whit so many chances and clarifications in the edit, i'm beginning to wonder if i payed attention at all, when i first read the post /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Mercantides]

Thanks for all the feedback. I agree that the cold call preflop is loose but I felt that the table was loose enough to warrant it.

The slowplay comment was in reference to the turn call by BB. When he bet out I put him on Kx but the call to my raise had me baffled.

After the flop:
I'm not sure about BB but MP1 has a big pair or trips.

After the turn:
When BB bets the turn I've got him on Kx. There's nothing else he could have that would make him bet into two raisers. When he calls I get very confused.
When MP1 calls he knows he's in trouble but he can't let go of his big pair. If he had trips he would have raised.

On the river:
BB must have Kx but is it K2 or did he just wake up?
MP1 is dead but he just can't fold such a big pot.

Result:
BB has K5.
MP1 has AA.

The 5 really surprise me. I can't believe BB didn't bet the turn. I can't say I'm mad at him though, it saved me 2 BB. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[jrz1972]

I had not one but two hands almost exactly like this come up yesterday. In both, I flopped a full house only to lose to a bigger full house. In both, I jammed at every opportunity. After both, my poor cat went flying.

You played it fine (other than PF, which is very loose but not totally awful). When situations like this arise, just rejoice that you weren't playing NL.