The ACLU: Do-Gooders in Action

[Zeno]

The ACLU is always sending me letters. Since I belong to this organization, I obviously should expect it but I still find it loathsome to see their latest letter barking about some crusade to save the U.S. from threat X, Y, or Z or panting about the latest mischievous doings of President Bush, and his leagues of minions, that are supposedly shredding the constitution and acting improperly in so many deplorable ways. I pay $20 a year for this trash. And of course, I am asked to donate additional money to save the U.S. from impending Armageddon. The hoopla is crouched in the most pleasent and pedestrian propagandist language.

An example of the most recent hooey:

“They want to turn America into a country governed by their interpretation of the Bible, serviced by faith-based, taxpayer-funded institutions and guided by Christian doctrine against which neither citizens nor judges should dare to speak up. “


‘They’? Ever since I was about three years old I have continuously heard about that all powerful and ubiquitous, but somehow shadowy, group called ‘They’. ‘They’ is always conjured up from the nether regions of hell by the paranoia-minded parasites out to bilk more bucks from the unwary, the scared, and the credulous.

Time to stock up on ammo and purchase that new rifle I’ve been wanting. ‘They’ are obviously after me too. The ACLU told me so.

Le Misanthrope

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
“They want to turn America into a country governed by their interpretation of the Bible, serviced by faith-based, taxpayer-funded institutions and guided by Christian doctrine against which neither citizens nor judges should dare to speak up. “

[/ QUOTE ]

This is retarded.

Did Dean write it, by any chance?

[ACPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
‘They’ is always conjured up from the nether regions of hell by the paranoia-minded parasites out to bilk more bucks from the unwary, the scared, and the credulous.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, how much did they get you for?
/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[superleeds]

[ QUOTE ]
I pay $20 a year for this trash

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure you can stop if you want.

[MMMMMM]

$20 is pretty cheap for a year's worth of entertainment

[superleeds]

true

[ACPlayer]

I trust you are getting your cheap entertaiment. If not, you too can: ACLU website. (http://www.aclu.org/Contribute/Contribute.cfm)

I have frequently had to give you poker lessons and how they apply in real life. So here is another:

Right now democracy, religious freedoms, and secular thinking has a big lead in the poker game of American politics. However, giving free cards can be very dangerous. A small blocking bet by giving to the ACLU can help prevent a catastrophic card coming off, and America ending up in the trash heap of a Christian (or other) theocracy. Do you understand poker? If so, make the blocking bet.

[kurto]

I don't see a problem. There are people who want that. And many aren't that shy about it. The people who loudly proclaim that this is a Christian Nation and think the Bible should be the basis of our laws. They want our schools to mirror their beliefs. They want people with their beliefs to be judges. They want their religious symbols in the courthouse. These are the people that think its important to have mentions of God on our legal tender and in our pledge. They don't want gays to marriage because its against their religion.

The GOP caters to these people. You may recall during the last election the GOP sent pamphlets to all the Registered Republicans in 2 states telling them that if Kerry won, the Bible would be banned. These are the people who pushed to have the law changed so now religious groups can receive federal funds. These are the people who fight against the science of evolution being taught in schools. I even heard that pressure from the religious right also helped end the Hubble program.

And its not a shadowy organization working in secret. Its people who petition right out in the open. They fight to have prayer in schools.

And... if you think the ACLU is amazing in action... how about the GOP saying "THEY" will ban the Bible. I'd say the ACLU looks tame in comparison.

I still recall after the last election some man-on-the-street interviews and there were 2 Bush fans who said that they voted for Bush, because he's not afraid to pray. The people who believe Bush talks with God. Who buy that he's on a mission to God. And for them we have Faith Based Initiatives. They're l

[MMMMMM]

I have no problem with blocking bets, but they just sounded retarded in that ad piece.

And I do have a problem with hyperbole and exaggeration.

[Zeno]

To be serious, in my opinion, the ACLU probably does more good than harm. Which is not bad for a Do-Gooder organization. But ACLU letters, pamphlets, and other literature are woefully put together and full of such exaggerated hooey, scare tactics, and stretches of logic that I find it insulting. It is on the same level with Republican or Democratic political party propaganda, or just about any other organization of whatever persuasion, that is out to either save the world or get your money – usually both.

The antics of the ACLU are at the same juvenile level as the people they are ‘fighting against’ or in disagreement with. It is all geared and ratcheted up (actually down, in my opinion) depending on how dire the cause is or how little time there is to right all the wrongs or rectified all the draconian agendas of the ‘enemy’. At least on face value, this reeks of hypocrisy.

It is very interesting reading all the political, social/moral, or environmental solicitations I receive. As far as I can recall, I have yet to receive one that presented facts undistorted or in a straightforward manner with reasonable and logical arguments without resorting to ballyhoo, half-truths, exaggeration, scare tactics and other propagandist buffoonery.

If the ACLU wants some of my money, why don’t they try the high road instead of the same low road as ‘the enemy’?

But I don’t expect them to; that would be too civil and liberal minded.

Le Misanthrope

[andyfox]

"Time to stock up on ammo and purchase that new rifle"

No need. Just get an "armed response" sign and post it by your door. It's done wonders for me.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
And I do have a problem with hyperbole and exaggeration.

[/ QUOTE ]

If 'they' (the ACLU) wish to elevate the organization they can solicit funds in a more civil way, and do so without resorting to the same bombastic tactics of, say, John Kerry, Otto Von Bismarck, or Mussolini. I really don't expect the ACLU, or anyone else for that matter, to take this approach but it would be interesting to see if it could occur at least once.

It illustrates that one must not only shout but needs to scream apocalyptic consequences in order to be heard above the din of noise that permeates almost all media. All reasonableness and civility is cast aside in the name of securing or progressing 'your agenda' or ‘your cause’ or whatever particular brand of snake oil is presently being spooned to the public by organizations out to save humanity from X, Y, or Z.


Le Misanthrope

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
No need. Just get an "armed response" sign and post it by your door. It's done wonders for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

True enough! That repulsive and offensive sign even took me aback. I soon recovered of course, but I must admit that I have a grudging admiration for your chutzpah.

But I like to have backup not to mention a number of different 'options'. And some people can’t read or may miss a sign in the dark, so I will be purchasing a rifle. Really, I just what to target shoot, I belong to a gun club and they have rifle competitions.

-Zeno

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
The GOP caters to these people.

[/ QUOTE ]


Have you ever considered that you to, perhaps, cater too much to the 'other side'? Thus, it is possible you engage in the same type of exaggerations and propagansit hooey as the Republicans, just from a different angle. Everyone does not fit into the same net.

Objectively reread your own post.

Le Misanthrope

[jj_frap]

As allies of the secular state, the ACLU must be supported.

We can't play poker if braindead religious conservatives turn America into a White Supremacist Jesusland.

[kurto]

I wish you would just come out and say what you object to. I'm aware of what I wrote.

How do I 'cater' to the other side? I gave a list of ways the religious right has pushed a religious agenda. I believe the agenda is country to one of the founding principles of our country.

I don't think all Republicans do this. But the GOP DOES solicit their vote and Bush is the only president that I'm aware of in my time that has so strongly promoted their agenda.

Nothing I listed was obscure (except perhaps the Hubble reference). Much of what I talked about is all relatively recent events.

Furthermore, I've read/seen interviews with many religious folks who are quite open about their agenda (ie... they unabashedly proclaim they believe our nation should be ruled by how they interpret Biblical values.)

I have no problem with you disagreeing, but you didn't counter anything I wrote.

And where I agree with you... both sides engage in exaggerations, propaganda and hyperbole.

But that doesn't mean that there's not some truth to the ACLU's claim.

[kurto]

Not that this excuses it, but I don't think there's an organization out there that doesn't sell themselves with messages "full of such exaggerated hooey, scare tactics, and stretches of logic"

Bush sold the war with fear tactics of nukes exploding over american cities.

I already mentioned the GOP flyers where they said if Kerry won, the Bible would be banned.

Howard Dean is being rudely hyperbolic these days.

Just about every advertisement on TV does it.

(on that note, I was reading a book about an American who lived in England for decades and then moved back to the US. His book, based on a series of columns he wrote, recounted his culture shock. One of the things I found amusing was his comparison of US advertisements with those in England. In England, advertisements aren't supposed to exxaggerate. They're very straightforward. So, in OUR pharmaceutical ads, you're led to believe if you take a drug, it will cure you, make the sun come out and you'll conquer the world. In Britian, the ads for the same product are likely to say, "take this and might feel marginally better in a few days.")

[ACPlayer]

The reason they use exaggerated hooey, scare tactics, and stretches of logic is because that is what works in direct mail programs. If you look at any direct mail peice for anything you will find similarities.

Remember that direct mail works on trying to get a return of .1 to .4 percent of the pieces sent out. So, when they send a million piecs of mail they expect responses from 10,000 to 40,000 people. The .4 percent standard is considered to be at the high end of returns.

Serious people realize that if you want to really understand the ACLU or other organization, reading their direct mail piece is hardly the way to understand whether they are a serious organization or simply charlatans. A close look at the actual work done is better.

I believe that the ACLU is a fine and worthwhile organization (as it seems you do too). Unfortunately we cannot agree with everything that a group does. The ACLU is a net positive.

[ACPlayer]

2008 Republican Nominee to be anointed (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-06-15-christian-right-08_x.htm)

Well, OK, my title for this USA Today article may be exaggerated. But take this quote from the article:

[ QUOTE ]
Leaders of conservative Christian organizations plan to jointly interview Republican contenders for the 2008 presidential nomination, perhaps even endorsing one of them — steps that could expand their already considerable political influence.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
Not that this excuses it, but I don't think there's an organization out there that doesn't sell themselves with messages "full of such exaggerated hooey, scare tactics, and stretches of logic"


[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that so?

And do think that was the point of why I started this thread?

-Zeno

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason they use exaggerated hooey, scare tactics, and stretches of logic is because that is what works in direct mail programs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it works. But why does it work?

Why the need to appeal to the more extreme ends of agendas? Would a more rational approach actually produce better results? One could easily set up an experiment to test this.

Why are so many people basically irrational beings?

-Zeno

[slamdunkpro]

ACLU - American Civil Liberals Union

Don't believe it? Ask them to help defend your civil liberties under the 2nd amendment

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is that so?


[/ QUOTE ]

Because it works.

Its similar to the issue of negative campaigning. The people claim to hate it. They claim to want to hear issues. But negative political ads have been shown to work. So people avoid the high road and do 'what sells.'

[kurto]

Jeez, you are a little limbaugh wanna be, aren't you.

The ACLU constantly champions conservatives. Didn't they defend Limbaugh's rights to privacy?

[jack spade23]

There have also been stories of them defending klan members in their right to free speech. They probably hate doing it, and dont do it as often as other defences, but they do it.

[kurto]

I actually find it amusing (in a laugh at hypocrites kind-of-way) how the right is always railing against the ACLU. The ACLU is one of the most principled organizations out there. They fight for civil liberties. They fight for people's rights under the Constitution (something these same people who attack the ACLU sometimes pretend they care about). I think most people get angry because the ACLU will defend people they don't like. But if they understand 'rights'... they should know that everyone has rights and deserve equal treatment.

Its precisely because they are an organization that adheres to their principles that you will find them defending the Klan or Limbaugh as well as fighting a church.

A principled Republican would understand that.

[slamdunkpro]

Why is it the first thing liberals do is name call and attack?

Why do you have so much hate?

My point (in case you missed it) is that they only pick caused that fit their political agenda.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is it the first thing liberals do is name call and attack?

Why do you have so much hate?


[/ QUOTE ]

Jaxmike... is that you?

[Zeno]

I see that I have, yet again, failed.

-Zeno

[ACPlayer]

One could easily set up an experiment to test this.

Direct mail marketing managers are constantly testing their direct mail pieces to maximize effectiveness. I fully expect the ACLU and its marketing consultants to be testing their messages.

The strategy is simple, they do not want to explain this complex subject in a direct mail piece. They simply want to grab the attention of those who already believe the message is true, the danger is real and then their objective is to shake them enough that they get out the check book and write a check.

Direct mail pieces are not intende to educate or convert people, not even the fence sitters. This a call for those who already beleive this to be true.

Why are so many people basically irrational beings?

I dont think the ACLU is being irrational in its approach, I dont think the people who already believe this particular scare to be irrational (I am not judging their position when I say this) and I dont think that the many who either dont open this mail or simply react as you did are being irrational.

Direct mail is all about being pragmatic to achieve a specific goal.

[Zeno]

Thanks for the interesting response.


[ QUOTE ]
Direct mail is all about being pragmatic to achieve a specific goal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, instead of 'Direct mail' in the above statement, insert something else - choose at your leisure.

My task is done, I hope.


-Zeno

[vulturesrow]

Good reply. I think the current and ongoing polarization of American political views is a contributor to why it works. I use the analogy of something called automatic gain control [used on radars]. Basically if the radar is receiving lots of garbage it will raise its gain to wash out this noise. Unfortunately if you do this enough, the AGC rises high enough to cover your actual returns as well. People only notice the noise now, with the blips of rational discourse and thought being lost in the current political noise and only the truly strong [read loud and obnoxious] signals get seen.


EDIT: FWIW, as nauseating as I find some of the ACLU stances, I do believe it is a good organization. I dont agree with a lot of their stances but I think they do enough good that I come down on their side.

[ACPlayer]

Actually the endless thirst for raising money is what exacerbates the polarization. Of course the more polarized we become the more important it is to increase money needed to get the message out.

The political apparatus/media can be viewed as a positive feedback circuit. Unfortunately such systems tend to become unstablt at some point.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]

The reason they use exaggerated hooey, scare tactics, and stretches of logic is because that is what works in direct mail programs.



Of course it works. But why does it work?

Why the need to appeal to the more extreme ends of agendas? Would a more rational approach actually produce better results? One could easily set up an experiment to test this.

Why are so many people basically irrational beings?

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling again to mind the reflection that it is good to be only part human, and part other (even if it is the lesser part).

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Why are so many people basically irrational beings?

We are, by nature, Xenophobes. Not just Americans, all humans. We haven't yet evolved far enough to eliminate that. It's still part of our basic survival instinct.

[Zeno]

I let this languish but finally decided on a random and rambling response. We are getting, somewhat, off base from a political theme and more into say evolution of society and the human mind. Anyway, interesting response:

[ QUOTE ]
We are, by nature, Xenophobes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are we, by nature, more rational as individuals, but then become more irrational has we divide into blood clans, groups, tribes, nations etc.? ( A book about the madness of crowds comes to mind).

In addition, Carl Sagan wrote some intriguing ideas in ‘Demon-Haunted World’ about the rational (scientific) nature of some hunter-gather tribes, specifically about the science of tracking and then tying this into rational thought processes. But all this was co-opted by priest craft, magic, shamanism and other hooey that became the basis of religion, broadly defined.

I also recall some articles in Free Inquiry and other magazines about the evolution of the brain in response to all the factors of where and how human societies ordered themselves through time.

And there are few essays by Bertrand Russell that touch on this subject as well. I suppose some anthropologist have study this in some detail also.

But I must be off. This was a bit rambling but I liked your Xenophobe comment and thus wanted to response. Thanks to all that participated in this thread.

-Zeno

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We also know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling. – Henri Poincaré

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