How hard do you push your draws? Is this too much?

[Dov]

Apart from the call PF, How bad was the post flop play?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

River: (7 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

[EvanJC]

i think the preflop call is okay. probably pretty neutral EV.
i don't like the flop raise all that much. it'd be different if it were a big field/pot.
given that you did raise the flop, i think you need to take the free turn card here even though you improved; your hand has very little showdown value.
the river is also bad w/out a read that villian is prone to folding.
my analysis may be very flawed. what do some competant players think? i have trouble playing draws as well.

[danng721]

Check turn, fold river. The flop raise is fine if you take the free card.

[J.R.]

I think the preflop is an easy call. your play is fine v. tight/nitty types, but my default would be to take the free card cause its tought to imagine a hand he raised from the sb that folds there.

[imported_wingman]

What about Q2s do you like?

A higher kicker could be debated. But I think this is an easy fold preflop.

**I just noticed that this is my second time to tell someone to fold preflop. I may be too tight.**

[EvanJC]

yes, folding is a definite no-no here at twoplustwo /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[imported_wingman]

[ QUOTE ]
yes, folding is a definite no-no here at twoplustwo /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I find that hard to believe.

[marand]

I think it's an easy fold preflop. Yes, I know many other don't agree around here /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Flop raise is not too bad, but I don't want to force button to fold so I would rather just call on the flop.
Take the free card on the turn unless he is very tight (not too common I would say).
The main reason for raising the flop would be to take the free card against most opponents.
Don't waste any more chips on the river.

[sully4321]

he raised, he didn't bet the flop... aka he couldn't have taken a "free" turn card but he could have just called, which i would have done

[krishanleong]

I think betting the river is atrocious. Sometimes you just have to let it go.

Krishan

[BabyJesus]

I don't like raising the flop, if anything you want button to come along with you for the ride. If he has flush draw, he won't fold to raise. If he has a 9, ten, or open ended; not folding. SB has shown some decent strength, you're liable to get 3 bet here, and not very likely will SB just up and fold AJ or AQ on the the flop or turn if you raise the flop. Ax might see river in which case you have to fire 3 bullets and hope they don't improve.

I like calling the flop and deciding what to do on the turn.

If they check and something kinda scary shows up like a 8, J, etc possibly fire way. (if river is crap as well after you fire on turn i would check unless its really scarcy IE completes a 4 card straight)

Crappy card comes and they lead out, raise is read dependent and call is acceptable.

If bad card comes A, K, etc and they fire just call. If they check I would probably check behind, also read dependent.

[pheasant tail (no 18)]

Preflop is ok IMO.

It's very player dependent, but I think the flop raise is ok if the SB will fold unimproved on the turn regularly. Taking the lead gives you the option to bet if you so choose. I like to have the lead in SH w/ position. You can stand some heat if SB has a hand and getting it heads up guarantees that you will be able to temper the damage if he 3-bets flop. You dont want button to put some silly raise in w/ a small pair only to get 3 bet by SB w/ a big pair. Get button out. The 7 SB in the pot are worth obtaining.

Turn bet is not so bad. It looks like you have up to 18 outs w/ the OESD and overcard and can stand some heat if you get raised. You're likely better than 2:1 against to win this. If you can get a fold one in 3 you should profit from this bet. I don't know why everyone seems to want you to take the free card so bad. I don't think anyone could beat this game if their winners were only when they had the best hand.

He's not folding the river more than 1 in 8 in my opinion. Too many draws that didn't get there. Bad bet.

[Dov]

Thanks for your reply.

SB had A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif for a pair of nines and MHING.

You got me thinking, though, so here's what 2 dimes had to say about it:

Flop
A9 53.23
Q2 46.77

Turn
A9 59.09
Q2 40.91

It is interesting to note that as my hand got better, my odds of winning dropped. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

This is pretty counter intuitive. I think it has to do with the 2 kicker. I was going to change the kicker to be greater than a 9, but lower than an A, but then I realized that I would already be ahead in the hand. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Thanks to everyone who responded.

I appreciate it.

[SippinSoma]

Your equity is decreasing because you have one less street to draw on against a made hand.

[witeknite]

Doing this early at a table could do some fun stuff for you're table image though.

WiteKnite

[witeknite]

I either don't raise the flop, or I take the free card. It's a one or the other kind of thing. Q-high is not going to win at showdown, and as you saw, w/one card to come, you don't have 50% equity. Also, if you check the turn, and one of your outs hit, you should still get 2 more bet's out of SB when you raise his auto-bet on the river. Since these bets only are going in when you hit (you fold to a river bet if you miss your draw), you get 2 more without paying one to draw.

WiteKnite

[Stormwolf]

The turn card is really bad against a PF raiser(most of the time) so check the turn, he might even lead the river when the flush gets there and you will be able to raise it

[djoyce003]

on the preflop fold thing, I don't think its all that bad to call with the suited cards in a threeway pot. He's calling 5 to win 25. Those aren't terrible odds. If SB doesn't raise often out of the blinds, it's debatable, but if he does it a lot, then I'd call, but for gods sake man, take the free turn card, that is why you raise the flop. Think of it this way, you are getting 1/1 on your turn bet, and you are most def not 1/1 to hit. Also, what are you doing betting the river, he's called every street, he's calling the river too, unless he has a busted flush draw like you, which is unlikely...check behind here. Once these guys call the turn, they will almost always call the river unless you have notes that say otherwise.

[Derek in NYC]

1. The preflop call is too loose. Suitedness isn't going to add too much value here in this 3-person field (you're around 8:1 against flopping your draw), so highcard value is key. HPFAP talks about this on p. 187 and indirectly on p. 197-98. This is why I avoid any hand combination involving a puny sidecard like a 2, 3, or 4. (The exception is A-rag, which can win unimproved heads up).

2. The flop raise is fine, but I'd take the freecard on the turn. This guy was the preflop raiser, and there's a decent chance that he hit the board, had a middle pair that he's committed to showing down, or that has a live draw, so I think the chances of getting him off the hand are low.

3. Betting the river is bad and predictable.

[droolie]

bumpingthatannoyingthreadoffthefrontpage....