Hooks, $215 SNG- how's my line?

[DarrenX]

reads: jessie_river is very suspect, calling too much in the early goings...

15/30 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 13099492) - Tue Jun 14 21:39:29 EDT 2005
Table Table 12083 (Real Money) -- Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: lovemycharly (1040)
Seat 2: jessie_river (1270)
Seat 3: the3gs (1285)
Seat 4: Crownine (940)
Seat 5: kuanhueifann (960)
Seat 7: scoopalot (1470)
Seat 8: steveandjane (930)
Seat 9: jonnny_k (985)
Seat 10: DarrenX (1120)
jonnny_k posts small blind (10)
DarrenX posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to DarrenX [ Jh, Jd ]
lovemycharly folds.
jessie_river calls (15)
the3gs folds.
Crownine folds.
kuanhueifann folds.
scoopalot folds.
steveandjane folds.
jonnny_k calls (5)
DarrenX raises (85) to 100
jessie_river calls (85)
jonnny_k folds.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 4d, Ad, 2d ]
DarrenX bets (125)
jessie_river calls (125)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 9d ]
DarrenX checks.
jessie_river bets (125)
DarrenX calls (125)
** Dealing River ** : [ 2s ]
DarrenX bets (200)
jessie_river calls (200)


By the way, what hand do you put jessie on? Thanks in advance.

[bones]

I'd probably put him on a bad ace or 77-TT range, depending on how aggressive I've seen him. With a diamond kicker.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]

DarrenX raises (85) to 100

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa, tiger!

[DarrenX]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

DarrenX raises (85) to 100

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa, tiger!

[/ QUOTE ]

You think? When I'm first in I'm raising 4-5x blinds at level one- with two limpers, I jack it up to 6-7x. With KK or AA I may make it 90 as psychologically it's much easier to call than 100. I'd be happy with the two limpers' chips with this tricky hand out of position.

[suited_ace]

Why do you check/call the turn?

[DarrenX]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you check/call the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have the 3rd nut flush on a 4-flush board. I'm either way ahead/way behind and a free card isn't hurting me. Jessie's turn bet was somewhat surprising as I had her pegged as passive, so when she bet I had her on a flush- it was too small a bet to be folding, so I called with the intention of a blocking bet on the river, folding to any raise.

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
it was too small a bet to be folding, so I called with the intention of a blocking bet on the river, folding to any raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is the problem with making the pot big preflop. You end up investing 1/3rd of your original stack on the turn and river trying to get to a "cheap" showdown.

[FieryJustice]

are you trying to lose?

[DarrenX]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it was too small a bet to be folding, so I called with the intention of a blocking bet on the river, folding to any raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is the problem with making the pot big preflop. You end up investing 1/3rd of your original stack on the turn and river trying to get to a "cheap" showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you suggesting playing the 5th best hand for set value against a loose weak limper and a small blind? I'd say 95% of the time I'm raising preflop here. Thoughts?

[DarrenX]

[ QUOTE ]
are you trying to lose?

[/ QUOTE ]

That bad, eh? Would you care to elaborate?

[bones]

After his turn bet, you have nowhere near the 5th best hand. You have a very mediocre hand.

Edit to point: You built a big pot pre-flop and now you're spending a lot of chips protecting a mediocre hand.

[UMTerp]

[ QUOTE ]

After his turn bet, you have nowhere near the 5th best hand. You have a very mediocre hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

After the turn bet, you have the 3rd best hand.

I don't think it's that terrible...

[DarrenX]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm saying that I don't put T325 more in the pot after I get called on the flop. And if I do put another chip in the pot, it won't be because I have the 3rd best flush draw with 1 card to come.

If you want to build a big pot pre-flop, fine. But realize that after his turn bet, you have nowhere near the 5th best hand. You have a very mediocre hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

A- I have the third best hand on the turn with a made flush, not a flush draw.
B- With a 4-flush on the board 3rd best heads up doesn't seem like a lock to me, but I think it's worth a showdown. I can consider a smaller blocking bet of maybe 125-150 on the river. Wow, am I way off on this? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[bones]

Oops. I misread the original post. My apologies.

[FieryJustice]

I just limp preflop and fold when the betting gets heavy on the flop. I see no need to lose a lot of chips with JJ when an A comes.

[microbet]

On the river you almost certainly have the best hand, but if you don't you aren't going to block anything. If you think there is a good chance he has a better hand, then check/call. If he has the nuts and you check, he'll probably just bet that same 200 or so rather than reraise your blocking bet.

I think your river bet is a decent value bet as he is fairly likely to call with a worse flush or even worse hands than that.

I'd have raised less preflop and probably checked the flop.

[pineapple888]

Wow, lotta concepts floating around here, from you and other posters.

Meta-rule: "When you are playing a calling station, play very simple, ABC poker."

Cause all those moves are just going to bounce off the stupid shield.

So, my line:
Raise pre-flop (like you did, for the reasons you gave).
Check the flop. Fold if villain bets anything substantial.
Pot-sized bet on the turn. Fold if re-raised.
Check the river. Forget blocking bets. Fold if villain bets anything substantial.


I will also pick on one of the concepts that you personally mis-apply here: it's harmless to give a free card on the river. No, no, no. The board will pair far too often, and now you have to worry about full houses and quads.

My two cents, anyway.

[DarrenX]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, lotta concepts floating around here, from you and other posters.

Meta-rule: "When you are playing a calling station, play very simple, ABC poker."

Cause all those moves are just going to bounce off the stupid shield.

So, my line:
Raise pre-flop (like you did, for the reasons you gave).
Check the flop. Fold if villain bets anything substantial.
Pot-sized bet on the turn. Fold if re-raised.
Check the river. Forget blocking bets. Fold if villain bets anything substantial.


I will also pick on one of the concepts that you personally mis-apply here: it's harmless to give a free card on the river. No, no, no. The board will pair far too often, and now you have to worry about full houses and quads.

My two cents, anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Pineapple, I appreciate the comments- I wasn't trying anything extremely fancy, but point taken. I bet the flop as a continuation bet, and would figure to get rid of 3 and 6 outer hands like Kx or KQ (without diamonds). When I say calling station I mean she called a large raise preflop after limping with A3s and called 3 decent-sized bets on the A high board against QQ. If the flop didn't hit her, I don't think she'd call, so I don't think I should check and assume she has an ace.

As I labeled her as a passive player, I can't see her betting a set on a 4-flush board so I ruled that out as a possibility, but point taken.

[Steve]

My gut feeling is that she has something like 99 or 88 with a diamond, and you played it well. Although in that case you would have won the hand and wouldn't be posting it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet the flop as a continuation bet, and would figure to get rid of 3 and 6 outer hands like Kx or KQ (without diamonds).

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct, but I don't think that's enough bang for your buck in this situation. Against a good player, a continuation bet will accomplish two other goals: 1.) It may get a better hand to fold, 2.) It will clarify the villain's hand. Against a calling station, I don't think either of those apply.

[ QUOTE ]
When I say calling station I mean she called a large raise preflop after limping with A3s and called 3 decent-sized bets on the A high board against QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's enough evidence for me.

[ QUOTE ]
If the flop didn't hit her, I don't think she'd call

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but think of all the ways the flop can hit her (by donkey standards).

[ QUOTE ]
so I don't think I should check and assume she has an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you shouldn't assume anything at this point. You're waiting for a better chance to get clarity. Or you're just checking it down all the way. (I could be wrong about this, though. It just feels better to me to check here.)

[ QUOTE ]
As I labeled her as a passive player, I can't see her betting a set on a 4-flush board so I ruled that out as a possibility, but point taken.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. But you can't be all that confident, can you? That's the problem.

[suited_ace]

[ QUOTE ]
Meta-rule: "When you are playing a calling station, play very simple, ABC poker."

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly my point when I asked about the turn. I think check/calling is very bad here, so I wanted to know what was your reasoning. If he's a calling station and you think you have the best hand, you have to raise. If there's a good chance he'll call you with a hand that you have beat, why wouldn't you do it?

I think your line would be perfect against a maniac, not a calling station.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
As I labeled her as a passive player, I can't see her betting a set on a 4-flush board so I ruled that out as a possibility, but point taken.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops, misunderstood you here -- you were talking about your line, where you checked and she bet. Yeah, I guess I'd call there too, for lack of anything better. But I wouldn't have gotten myself in that situation /images/graemlins/smile.gif

And my general point about a free card with a flush, which you seem to agree with, still stands.

[wookie]

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, what hand do you put jessie on? Thanks in advance.

[/ QUOTE ]

99 or other middle pair has been mentioned, but I think A9 is very possible, and the way some people play AK even makes that possible. I see her bet on the turn as a test of your hand (and maybe a flush bluff) after your check.

AxKd (or AxQd) would also account for the calls pre- and post-flop, the test bet on the turn and the call on the river.

She doesn't have a boat because I would think a raise of your river bet would have been in order - unless she thinks you might have 9s full beating her 2s full (A2). Quad 2s are also out - why not raise the river?

I think AxKd or AxQd or A9. - w

[DarrenX]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Meta-rule: "When you are playing a calling station, play very simple, ABC poker."

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly my point when I asked about the turn. I think check/calling is very bad here, so I wanted to know what was your reasoning. If he's a calling station and you think you have the best hand, you have to raise. If there's a good chance he'll call you with a hand that you have beat, why wouldn't you do it?

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is, I don't know if I have the best hand on the turn- I have a very good hand, but how are you supposed to find out where you stand against a passive calling station? If I bet, she'll still call any range of hands here (top pair, two pair, set, lower flush, higher flush)- it gives me no new info. If I check and she checks behind, I can be fairly certain she doesn't have a big flush (as anyone passive will not be betting a set into a 4-flush board). She bets, telling me she HAS a flush. I call because my hand's too good to let go for a 1/4 pot bet, and
I plan a blocking/value bet on the river that will only get raised if I'm beat.

If she had checked the turn, I may have been worried about a full on the river and check/called a small/medium bet.

[DarrenX]

I had posted results earlier but they were kind of hidden. Villan had 9h Qd to edge out my J high flush. Thanks for all responses.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
I had posted results earlier but they were kind of hidden. Villan had 9h Qd to edge out my J high flush. Thanks for all responses.

[/ QUOTE ]People play Q9o in raised pots in the $215s? Wow.

[DarrenX]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I had posted results earlier but they were kind of hidden. Villan had 9h Qd to edge out my J high flush. Thanks for all responses.

[/ QUOTE ]People play Q9o in raised pots in the $215s? Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure TEPop84 and some other 200 regulars can chime in here, but my limited 200s experience tells me that you can still count on one or two live ones at most tourneys. I suppose the ones where I don't find them, it's me! /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I had posted results earlier but they were kind of hidden. Villan had 9h Qd to edge out my J high flush. Thanks for all responses.

[/ QUOTE ]People play Q9o in raised pots in the $215s? Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure they do, mostly because they are terrible, but not always. If I was good at linking I could find that step 5 higher thread where giga calls a raise with that hand in level 1, then wins the pot with a bluff raise on the flop.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Meta-rule: "When you are playing a calling station, play very simple, ABC poker."

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly my point when I asked about the turn. I think check/calling is very bad here, so I wanted to know what was your reasoning. If he's a calling station and you think you have the best hand, you have to raise. If there's a good chance he'll call you with a hand that you have beat, why wouldn't you do it?

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is, I don't know if I have the best hand on the turn- I have a very good hand, but how are you supposed to find out where you stand against a passive calling station? If I bet, she'll still call any range of hands here (top pair, two pair, set, lower flush, higher flush)- it gives me no new info. If I check and she checks behind, I can be fairly certain she doesn't have a big flush (as anyone passive will not be betting a set into a 4-flush board). She bets, telling me she HAS a flush. I call because my hand's too good to let go for a 1/4 pot bet, and
I plan a blocking/value bet on the river that will only get raised if I'm beat.

If she had checked the turn, I may have been worried about a full on the river and check/called a small/medium bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

But a turn bet here is simply for value. You think you have the better hand, so you bet. Of course you don't know for sure, but you still bet. Forget all that other stuff. She calls, fine. Check/check the river, see who wins.

(As opposed to the flop, where I can't be the slightest bit confident I'm ahead, so I don't bet.)

Simple, simple, simple against this type of player. You make your money here with value bets, not moves. It's almost like you are playing limit poker.

[RicktheRuler]

[ QUOTE ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 9d ]
DarrenX checks.
jessie_river bets (125)
DarrenX calls (125)

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems really wrong to me. I dont see how I could justfiy putting more chips into this pot given the action, the board and your holding. Seems like an easy c/f for me. That said, if we can play outside of the box, I wouldnt hate a check raise on the turn either.

[DarrenX]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 9d ]
DarrenX checks.
jessie_river bets (125)
DarrenX calls (125)

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems really wrong to me. I dont see how I could justfiy putting more chips into this pot given the action, the board and your holding. Seems like an easy c/f for me. That said, if we can play outside of the box, I wouldnt hate a check raise on the turn either.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think calling with the 3rd nut flush draw here is wrong? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[RicktheRuler]

Yes.