worst brain freeze ever???

[bocablkr]

I need to vent - what an idiot I was last night. Playing $20 no-limit holdem tournament with 746 players. Two tables left with 10 players - need to get down to 9. I am in 6th place with $75,000. Chip leaders have around 200,000. Blinds are 4000/8000. All I need to do is wait out one player. I get AJ unsuited and raise all-in to steal the blind out of position with a chip leader ahead of me. WHY??? He calls with AK. What was I thinking - I have no idea why I did something that stupid. I had been stealing blinds before this but should not have been doing it at this point. Has anyone else done anything this stupid???

[SpeakEasy]

Yeah, that's a horrible play. Maybe worth a 3xBB raise ... maybe.

[ThrillFactor]

Why are you placing so much value on just reaching the final table?

What were stacks 7-10 like?

Have the chip leaders at your table been active, or have they clammed up waiting for someone to go broke?

There's 1/6th of your stack out there in blinds (and I'm assuming antes) and you're 5-handed with AJ. I don't necessarily (sp?) think it's all that horrible a push.

[ThrillFactor]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that's a horrible play. Maybe worth a 3xBB raise ... maybe.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have <10BB already, now you're going to raise 3x and fold to a big-stack push (which they should do with a broad range of hands considering the situation)? Don't forget you're eating the blinds again in a couple of hands.

I think this is surely a push or fold hand.

[bocablkr]

They paid the same from 18-10 (like $164). From 9 up the payout was much better. 9th got like $250, 1st over $3000. I guess I was just trying to guarantee a last table spot - I am admitting it was a horrible play. Just wondering if I am the only one that has done something that stupid?

[SpeakEasy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that's a horrible play. Maybe worth a 3xBB raise ... maybe.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have <10BB already, now you're going to raise 3x and fold to a big-stack push (which they should do with a broad range of hands considering the situation)? Don't forget you're eating the blinds again in a couple of hands.

I think this is surely a push or fold hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me restate more clearly, since my sarcasm is not too loud today -- FOLD.

[Masquerade]

[ QUOTE ]
... need to get down to 9 ... All I need to do is wait out one player... Has anyone else done anything this stupid???

[/ QUOTE ]

Playing for 9th - as you obviously are - is far more stupid. Play for 1st.

[bocablkr]

Are you saying you would not 'clam up' at that point? I was not playing for 9th but just a spot at the last table. Once there, I would be playing for 1st.

[jrforman]

If your playing 5 or 6 handed on the button with less than 10 BBs, there is NOTHING wrong with pushing A/J as a steal or in reality most likely having the best hand. Bad luck running into AK... Move on, do the same thing next time and play for the win.

[Rduke55]

I don't think this was terrible. You're 5 handed. You are on the FT bubble so people may be playing tight. You have 10BB so any normal raise is a considerable portion of your stack. The fact that you're out of position makes the all in idea better IMO since your bet negates position.
Just unlucky is all.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying you would not 'clam up' at that point? I was not playing for 9th but just a spot at the last table. Once there, I would be playing for 1st.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why shoot yourself in the foot before running a race? I don't get it.... Also, how can you be "out-of-position" at a 5-handed table?

Raise this everytime, and PUSH it every time. 10BB rule IS in effect.

[schwza]

uhhh.... what?

i think this is an obvious push. folding here would be a pretty bad play. you have AJ 5-handed, presumably utg. you really think that's not enough hand to push with with under 10x? if there are antes, then it becomes a super easy push.

[ QUOTE ]
18-10 (like $164). From 9 up the payout was much better. 9th got like $250, 1st over $3000

[/ QUOTE ]

from this point, it doesn't matter what 18-11 got. there is a jump from 10 to 9, and i'm sure there's at least as large a jump from 9 to 8 etc. there's no real bubble here, unless hero has psychological reasons for valuing a final table highly.


can some more people please respond to this thread?

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Why shoot yourself in the foot before running a race?

[/ QUOTE ]

great way to put it. i'm glad i'm not crazy.

[bocablkr]

Thanks - the last two replies will make me sleep better tonight.

[hurlyburly]

Your push was correct. Frustrating that you ran into the 3rd worst hand possible, but correct. The only exception I would make is if the other table had 2 super short players or you were running 3rd in chips.

[bocablkr]

Just to clarify things - yes, there were antes ($150). I was in 6th place overall. Shortest stacks were about 30,000 and 40,000. I really did not expect so much support from you guys. After playing for 4+ hours I just thought I had a lapse in judgement but apparently some disagree. Thanks! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[HouseBlouse]

Hey,

Hey I was in this tourney, i had a brain freeze and took 4th.

In the situation we were in, definily push and hope people fold. Play for first not for 9th. 9th had like 150 dollars, 1st had 3.7k.

Although you could have waited for a short stack to bust out before you, what is another 30 bucks when you can play for first. AJ is too good for you to be passing this up with your stack and the way the blinds are.

[ThrillFactor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that's a horrible play. Maybe worth a 3xBB raise ... maybe.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have <10BB already, now you're going to raise 3x and fold to a big-stack push (which they should do with a broad range of hands considering the situation)? Don't forget you're eating the blinds again in a couple of hands.

I think this is surely a push or fold hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me restate more clearly, since my sarcasm is not too loud today -- FOLD.

[/ QUOTE ]


Oh yeah, my sarcasm meter was no where near that one. Better check the batteries...

[flatline]

Just thought I'd add a voice of agreement. Instapush.. no other play makes sense. (Unless, as some said earlier, there were other players that were terribly short stacked, which there weren't)

[TheDrone]

I don't know that this push is "super easy" according to the rough chip equity calculation I just did. Basically this play is chipEV neutral if you steal the blinds 70% of the time, and the 30% you are called is against TT-AA, AQ/AK. I simplified the calculation for a double up or bust out scenario, and assumed only two outcomes - all fold or just one call. For this play to be +cashEV, you probably need to steal 80-85% of the time, which seems likely with those calling standards (remember someone has to call 10x here).

Assuming these calculations aren't way off, they support my thinking that pushing is marginally good but not really good. I'm sure someone can argue for looser calling standards, and in that case the steal % goes down too.

[11t]

I push this 100% of the time with <10xBB from the button, co, and from UTG 5 handed.

Anyways folding your way into anything is weak-tight imo. It probably isn't that bad of a move and you are just upset cus somebody had ak.

[USCUNC]

Yes... lol

[bocablkr]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey,

Hey I was in this tourney, i had a brain freeze and took 4th.

In the situation we were in, definily push and hope people fold. Play for first not for 9th. 9th had like 150 dollars, 1st had 3.7k.

Although you could have waited for a short stack to bust out before you, what is another 30 bucks when you can play for first. AJ is too good for you to be passing this up with your stack and the way the blinds are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Small world House - aren't you the one who knocked me out. I should have known you were a 2+2er. Congratulations on a good call. You waited a long time to call - was it a tough decision or were you just taking your time? I thought you were going to win the tournament - 4th place is not too bad. Good Luck in the future.

[A_PLUS]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know that this push is "super easy" according to the rough chip equity calculation I just did. Basically this play is chipEV neutral if you steal the blinds 70% of the time, and the 30% you are called is against TT-AA, AQ/AK. I simplified the calculation for a double up or bust out scenario, and assumed only two outcomes - all fold or just one call. For this play to be +cashEV, you probably need to steal 80-85% of the time, which seems likely with those calling standards (remember someone has to call 10x here).

Assuming these calculations aren't way off, they support my thinking that pushing is marginally good but not really good. I'm sure someone can argue for looser calling standards, and in that case the steal % goes down too.

[/ QUOTE ]


This is wrong, I dont feel like doing the calculations right now, but it is definitely +CEV to push AJ 5 handed with antes. It might even be VERY +CEV, if you disagree, I will do the math tomorrow.

Besides that, 5 handed with antes, your stack is going to get eaten alive if you are waiting for a hand better than AJ. So by the time you do take a stand, you may have 5xBB, and need to double just to get back to the 10xBB stack you should have pushed 20 hands ago.

I really dont understand the obsession with the final table, and have no idea why people are advocating anything other than a push.

I think A8, A9 is where it gets interesting, but I will definitely run through the math tomorrow to see what the baseline hand is.

Original Poster, could you please give me the stack sizes (apx) and payout structure.

thanks

[HouseBlouse]

Was just taking my time becuase it was quite a few chips, and i really didn't want to be in a coinflip situation.