This way or the fast way

[brick]

Average B&M 4-8 table.

I limp UTG with TT.
UTG+1 raises. (younger slightly more agressive guy, he could have a pretty wide range here).
All fold to SB who 3 bets. We call. (I put the SB on a big pair, AK or AQ.)

Flop is:
976r

SB bets. I call. UTG+1 calls.

4h (two hearts)
SB bets. I raise. UTG+1 folds. SB calls.

6s
Sb bets. I fold.

[SmileyEH]

I think raising preflop makes this hand much easier to play. I'd raise the flop how you played it - you want to eliminate UTG+1's overcards.

I'd also call the river.

-SmileyEH

[cjhellm]

You played the flop and the turn very well, but I think you're good enough times to call the river.

[Argus]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd also call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't understand this. Is this an AK donkbet 10% of the time? This really sounds to me like QQ or JJ (senselessly) worried about two pair on the turn.

[UVaHoo]

I also vote for raising preflop, just to get some of the typical B&M 4/8 crap out of the way, as well as due to the fact that you have a good hand.

I don't mind waiting until the turn to raise, but you set yourself up for making a difficult decision on the river by not raising either preflop or on the flop to define your hand.

That said, since it's really hard to define your hand based on how you played it, I would definitely have called the river. If you win 1 out of 10 times, you show a profit, and especially in a B&M room, I think you'll win at least that often.

[brick]

[ QUOTE ]
I also vote for raising preflop, just to get some of the typical B&M 4/8 crap out of the way, as well as due to the fact that you have a good hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's nothing wrong with raising. I figured we would have a limpfest and so I decided to play it more like 99 than JJ.

[UVaHoo]

Certainly a decent argument can be made for limping hands like this, just to get a huge pot when you do hit your set. I think that in most of the B&M rooms I've played in, you'll still get enough callers to make the raise worthwhile for value, both if you hit your set, and if you flop all undercards.

[brick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd also call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't understand this. Is this an AK donkbet 10% of the time? This really sounds to me like QQ or JJ (senselessly) worried about two pair on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, don't you guys think AK would be scared senseless by this point?

[UVaHoo]

Do you have any reads on the SB? I know you said you put him on a high pair or AK/AQ, but did you have anything else on his post flop play?

I'm starting to lean toward folding, but to me, I still think I would call getting > 10:1 on the river call.

[brettbrettr]

The only street I like is the turn.

Raise pre-flop. Raise the flop. Folding that river is bad.

[brick]

[ QUOTE ]
The only street I like is the turn.

Raise pre-flop. Raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fast way. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[chief444]

I think the river fold is OK if the opponent isn't a Phil Helmuth wannabe with shades and a hat pulled down so you can't see him throwing his chips halfway across the table while flexing and staring at you. And as long as you aren't continually making river laydowns like this.

I think the preflop limp is pretty schoolgirlish.

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
And as long as you aren't continually making river laydowns like this.


[/ QUOTE ]

Calling the flop, then raising the turn and folding to a river bet is just not something I want to do - especially live. If that increases your opponents' bluffing frequency the slightest bit I think you suffer.

-SmileyEH

[brettbrettr]

If the board hadn't paired on the end I'd be less inclined to call the donkbet. But I probably still would and its probably a leak.

But if Hero had been folding in these spots then this could easily be a guy taking a shot with u/i overs. Yes, we know from his pre-flop play that he doesn't have a 6. Is *he* smart enough to realize that we know he knows we know this?

[brick]

[ QUOTE ]
Folding that river is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not bad. Pot is offering 11 to 1.
I think you'll find a bluff here about 1 in 16.
But, say you're right and this is a bluff 1 in 8 times.
7 * -1 = -7
1 * 11 = 11
4 BB / 8 times = .5 BB mistake

Even if folding is wrong, it's not very wrong.

[chief444]

Smiley,

The thing is though, you're justifying a call arguing that you're opponent is bluffing too frequently now (since you're only really ahead of a bluff here) but then justifying it further by saying you don't want to increase your opponent's bluffing frequency. If the opponent is bluffing too much already then discouraging bluffing is not beneficial. My thinking is he's probably behind too often to call here but he just needs to be aware of his image of being someone capable of folding decent hands on the river in the future and therefore next time this situation comes up he probably should call because he's now more likely to see a bluff.

Chief

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
Smiley,

The thing is though, you're justifying a call arguing that you're opponent is bluffing too frequently now (since you're only really ahead of a bluff here) but then justifying it further by saying you don't want to increase your opponent's bluffing frequency. If the opponent is bluffing too much already then discouraging bluffing is not beneficial. My thinking is he's probably behind too often to call here but he just needs to be aware of his image of being someone capable of folding decent hands on the river in the future and therefore next time this situation comes up he probably should call because he's now more likely to see a bluff.

Chief

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm more concerned about how the rest of the table views hero from now on. They will all react differently to this new information, and I think that will make it harder for you in the future - not just against the villian in question. But really, all this could be avoided by not underrepresenting your hand so much.

-SmileyEH

[jskills]

I hate it.

I'd raise PF with TT. I'd raise the flop as well.

I'm also calling the river for one more here. The 6 didn't do anything for anyone, so you're in the same spot you were on the flop and turn - with an overpair.

[jba]

I really do not understand why we're not raising the flop here.

[brick]

[ QUOTE ]
The 6 didn't do anything for anyone

[/ QUOTE ]

And I've got some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.


BTW. My schoolgirl self says "Hate" is a very strong word.

[Argus]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm also calling the river for one more here. The 6 didn't do anything for anyone, so you're in the same spot you were on the flop and turn - with an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]
But you aren't in the same spot you were on the turn because you raised villain and he called and then value bet the river. A willingness to put a bet in on this street when a brick falls makes villain's range of hands a lot narrower, and I don't see any in that range that you beat except a bluff with an ace. And I don't think the bluff is sufficiently frequent to warrant a call.

[Argus]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm also calling the river for one more here. The 6 didn't do anything for anyone, so you're in the same spot you were on the flop and turn - with an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]
But you aren't in the same spot you were on the turn because you raised villain and he called and then value bet the river. A willingness to put a bet in on this street when a brick falls makes villain's range of hands a lot narrower, and I don't see any in that range that you beat except a bluff with an ace. And I don't think the bluff is sufficiently frequent to warrant a call.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
My schoolgirl self

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't be mad! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I think you're flop and turn play are fine BTW. Although with the gutshot straight I would be a little more inclined to raise the flop than without it here.

[jskills]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The 6 didn't do anything for anyone

[/ QUOTE ]

And I've got some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.


BTW. My schoolgirl self says "Hate" is a very strong word.

[/ QUOTE ]

SB REraised preflop with what hand that the 6 helped? Are you fearing quad 6's?

"Hate" - well I hate the line you took, but you seem like a nice guy /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Grease]

[ QUOTE ]
The only street I like is the turn.

Raise pre-flop. Raise the flop.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The fast way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I second this.

[brick]

I'm not fearing anything except an overpair.

I suppose it didn't "hurt" my hand becaues I'm already behind overpairs, but it wasn't a blank.

When the board paired and he bet I did not feel that this "average player" was capable of bluffing. He didn't have any reason to put me on AK or a big pair which makes this bet even more dangerous.

Don't forget He 3-bet preflop from the SB.

So the board paired, he bet, I said "Good Bet" and folded.

He showed KK.

[jskills]

Well your overpair lost to his overpair. I believe you still need to raise preflop, raise the flop, and call the river.

I didn't see any reads in your orginal post that told me anything about villan that would make me think he had a better hand than you instead of AK or AQ.

Your reasoning for the way you played it sounds somewhat results oriented to me. Then again, you were there, I was not.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Folding that river is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not bad. Pot is offering 11 to 1.
I think you'll find a bluff here about 1 in 16.
But, say you're right and this is a bluff 1 in 8 times.
7 * -1 = -7
1 * 11 = 11
4 BB / 8 times = .5 BB mistake

Even if folding is wrong, it's not very wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're assuming you can only beat a bluff. In fact, many players will value bet top pair here, feeling that they are going to call a bet anyways. Folding is definitely bad, especially since you have played your hand so deceptively.

Good luck.
Eric

[brick]

[ QUOTE ]

You're assuming you can only beat a bluff. In fact, many players will value bet top pair here, feeling that they are going to call a bet anyways. Folding is definitely bad, especially since you have played your hand so deceptively.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have been reading your posts for years and appreciate your insight.

I should have said "I think you'll find a worse hand 1 in 16 times."

The way I played the hand should appear bigger to my opponent than had I played it fast.
I can see calling if this was 40-80 but it's 4-8.