KK late stages of HE tourney; best play?

[Squirrel]

My sister and I are having a slight disageement on this tourney situation that occured today.

Touney started at limit, but is now no limit
12 players remain on 2 tables, 6 players on each
Blinds are 500/1000 and the average stack is around 9000
Final table will be 11 handed, with top 9 in the money.
The payout structure is relatively top heavy, with these approximate payouts:
1-1050
2-560
3-180
9-90, so 4-9 is very flat.

You are in the CO. UTG (Good tourney player) goes all-in for 2000.
Next player folds. You have 6500 and KK.

You notice that the button and sb are folding. They are already starting to pitch their hands.
100% reliable read.

BB has already looked at his cards, but is a good enough player to not give away information
on what his intentions are. You know however, that this player would call (correctly) with any
2 cards if it is folded to him.

He has 5500 after posting the BB, which means you and BB started the hand
with the same ammount of chips.

1) Raise all-in, or smooth call the 2000 hoping to trap BB?

2) For those who say raise all-in, what if you have AA instead?

Thanks for your responses, I will post my opinions shortly.

[Squirrel]

I forgot to mention folding, although I don't see this a realisic option.

[pokerlover]

I would re-raise all in. This is a hand I would want to play heads up against the all in better who probably has a lesser hand because he is in a steal postition. Why let the ace on the flop hurt you? With the aces you may want to smooth call for the extra 1k but if the flop comes in suited or up and down you may not want to be in that trouble. I would probably raise all in with aces as well.

[ohkanada]

Call and then put the BB all-in on any flop. You are certainly risking giving the BB a free shot but I think it is worth it.

I think with QQ it is a tougher choice. Any other pairs or big aces I would raise all-in.

Ken Poklitar

[ohkanada]

Raising all-in, nets you +3500. You now have 10k and "slightly" above average but still short stacked. When the blinds increase you are in even more stack trouble.

The other thought is the initial raiser more likely has an Ace then the BB since he has raised all-in and the BB has a random hand. Plus with any decent Ace, the BB is probably calling all-in anyways.

Ken Poklitar

[whiskeytown]

yeah...you're pretty much committed potwise if you call, so I say go for it...He could have an A with a rag, or Q10 suited...K's are a great hand heads up, and I wouldn't be too scared....I'd get rid of the competition in the BB and just push the whole stack in...if he doesn't call, you're back to 4500 cause the UTG only has 2000..

get it heads up...push all in..if you call, you're pot committed (1/3 of your chips in the pot) - so no point in running at that point...

RB

PS. and I've done it on the bubble b4 too..with KK - ended up taking 3rd...but if I had just played the scaredy cat, I wouldn't have had enough chips to make the final table...when short stacked, gamble...

RB

[Boris]

I think you flat call and try to get the big blind to come in with you. Despite all the bad beat stories, your kings will hold up most of the time here three way. I would hope the bb catches a pair and decides to go with you. The upside to trapping the BB is that you will more than double up AND you will bust two people. If you get busted so what. 5-9 don't pay anything anyhows. the 2000 from UTG aren't going to help you that much. You have a big hand so you should try to win a big pot.

[sam h]

what kind of flop will the bb need to bet into a dry sidepot here? and how will he react after checking to you and seeing you put the rest of your stack in? is your call itself going to set off warning bells? there are a lot of marginal holdings where you would move in here to try to get heads up getting almost 2 to 1. so what would you call with?

basically, i like the idea of calling and trying to trap because of the tourney structure. but i think its only a really positive ev play if you are relatively likely to get paid off when the bb makes top pair mediocre kicker. with aa, a call is even better.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

I vote to go all-in.

If you just call, then the BB is getting 5.5:1 on his call, and is therefore probably correct to call and take a shot at cracking your KK. You need to give him a chance to make a mistake. If you and he had bigger stacks, I would probably raise to about 4K, so it's enough for him to make a mistake by calling, but not so much that he will surely fold. However, raising to 4K will look so suspicious here that I say go all-in instead. Before you do so, stare down the all-in player for awhile, so it appears you're calculating what range of hands he could go all-in with from that position. Then, when you raise all-in, it will readily appear to be an isolation raise, like you have a small pair or a medium A and want to make sure it's just you and the short stack. In that case, the BB might call with hands like 77 or AT or KQs.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Squirrel]

I was in favor of raising all-in. (I do think it's close though)

When UTG goes all-in for a mini-raise, this reraise is going to look like an isolation attempt
on a desperate player. The BB will should realize you don't need a huge hand to make this play,
especially 6 handed (even more so that the button and SB were definitely folding).

He may call with his medium pairs, as well as Ace good kickers, and big suited Kings. I welcome
all these calls obviously.

If you smoothcall, and let the BB in cheaply, he may just call with a hand that he would have
called all-in with had you reraised. This is the situation I want to avoid. Now with a protected
main pot, and a dry sidepot, you have seriously reduced the chances of him bluffing or semi-bluffing
which is a large part of your profit in slowplaying these big pairs; snapping off these bluffs. In
fact if you do get his action after the flop, there's a good chance he outflopped you.

I'm less concerned about being outflopped (that's the known risk to slowplaying), as I am to
letting him off cheaply on a bad flop for him, with a hand he would have called all-in with before
the flop anyway.

I actually think due to the UTG all-in desperation mini-raise, and the protected pot it creates,
you're going to get more action from BB's second best hands before the flop, not after.


With AA I think it is even closer yet, but it sure looks suspicious calling for roughly 1/3 of your
stack. The only time I would consider it is if the BB was a poor tournament player, or if I thought
the BB thought I was a TERRIBLE tournament player. Then this call may not let off the red sirens
it would if both players involved were competent.

This is usually not the case at this stage in a tournament, so if the BB knows I'd shove it in with
AT here, why not shove it in with AA also?

[Squirrel]

If no one calls UTG's mini-raise, I am assuming you can literally call without even looking at
your cards getting 3.5 to 1 and no chance of being busted.

If another player calls this raise however, are there now hands you may throw away for only
1,000 more, while getting 5.5 to 1, due to the fact that this player can bust you? Not to mention
the fact that this play screams slowplay.