Donk'y 43s hand

[DavidC]

Not my standard line:

--

Mithong in the BB.
UTG+2 is TAA, I guess he had a high pair.

MP2 is an SLPP:
-bet to river 55 on qq4 board in lp when no action on the flop

MP3 is LAP:
-cdtr kk (inc pf) on qq4 brd
-took a while to check with weak made hand on ahif vs pfr
-stl co 99, bf khi then cfcr... get ag turned set
-hammer hard with set but no br vs donkbet and calls on potential str brd
-back off on mon f hu aft pfr (fold flop in pos)
-just ct, cal riv fl mwrp
-just call f in lp 3w rp 99 top set, then just ctr

(can you tell I've been single-tabling?)

--

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (13 SB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds.

Turn: (9 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (11 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB





===============





Questions:

1) Was the preflop call terrible, bad, or okay?
2) Was the flop raise okay?


--Dave.

[AlmightyJay]

That stop and go on the turn really makes me think he's got A8, and is scared of the straight and flush possibilities on the river. I think I check this river behind.

[Dave G.]

The PF call is pretty marginal. I wouldn't be playing this. If you bump it up to 54s, maybe. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with the flop raise. You have a weak hand and your main reason for sticking around in this pot has to be because of the number of people in it. You are folding an ace here about never, so just call, hope a lot of people come along with you and you improve. Blowing away the field with a hand that is almost certainly behind right now seems very counterproductive.

[karitek]

[ QUOTE ]

1) Was the preflop call terrible, bad, or okay?
2) Was the flop raise okay?


[/ QUOTE ]

1 - preflop call good.
2 - flop raise standard. You have a lot of outs to improve to 2 pair or better:

-1.5 outs to 2 pair(discounting the 3s because they put 4 to a straight on the board and 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif completes a flush draw)
-2 outs to trips
-1.5 outs for the BDFD
-a little over 3 outs to a straight (the 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif is dirty)

that gets you over 8 outs, for which you definitely have the odds. by raising you get out any 5s, and hopefully any 2 or 4.

As far as the river goes, i don't know. at first i was going to say bet. but i agree with Jay, the stop and go is a bit worrying. now i just dont know.

[Dave G.]

[ QUOTE ]
2 - flop raise standard. You have a lot of outs to improve to 2 pair or better:

-1.5 outs to 2 pair(discounting the 3s because they put 4 to a straight on the board and 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif completes a flush draw)
-2 outs to trips
-1.5 outs for the BDFD
-a little over 3 outs to a straight (the 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif is dirty)

that gets you over 8 outs, for which you definitely have the odds. by raising you get out any 5s, and hopefully any 2 or 4.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're being way too generous with the outs counting here. I'd give:

- 1 out for the 3s because of the flush and straight possibilities.
- 2 outs for the 4s
- 1 out for the BDFD (it's 4 high, you aren't guaranteed a win even if you do hit, so you can't give 1.5 outs for it)
- 1.5 outs for the 5. The 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif completes the flush as you said, but you are also chopping with any 3. Drawing to only half the pot, you can't count these as full outs.

That's 5.5 outs. We certainly have odds to continue here so that is not in question, but the bet came from close to our right. A raise can (and did) blow the field away when we are still drawing. This is not what we want. We only want to raise when our equity is larger than our pot contribution. By blowing the field away, we minimise the chance of this happening.

In this instance, even with your calculated 8 outs, we have nowhere near enough equity to compensate for the fact that our raise got only 1 caller. This turned out to be a very negative expectation play. My argument is not results oriented; I argue that you are much more likely to end up in this situation by raising than by calling. Calling is, in my mind, clearly the better play.

[karitek]

ok, i probably did over-value my outs. (it's something i've been criticized for and need to work on). although i think you can give at least 2 outs to a straight, the chance of someone cold-calling with a 3 is pretty slim.

I'm not advocating raising for value here. We want to push people like gutshots out, so our 2 pair and trips outs are good. Am I wrong?

[Fantam]

1. I dont think the PF call is terrible. However, 34s is not quite up to the standards that SSHE recommends to call a PFR with, even with 4 players in the pot.

2. I dont think that I would have gone for a raise on the flop. Although a lot of players did fold to your flop raise, they would still have been getting decent odds to call with most drawing hands.

I would have preferred to call the flop bet and wait for the turn to attempt a check-raise. If successful, this would have made it a lot more expensive for more drawing hands to call.

In particular, it would have helped to clean up 3 of your outs to improve to 2 pair, if a 3 fell on the river. As the turn raise would have forced players with a 5, holding gut-shot draws to the straight to either fold or call unprofitably.

[DeathDonkey]

I think the preflop call is pretty terrible.

-DeathDonkey

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2 - flop raise standard. You have a lot of outs to improve to 2 pair or better:

-1.5 outs to 2 pair(discounting the 3s because they put 4 to a straight on the board and 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif completes a flush draw)
-2 outs to trips
-1.5 outs for the BDFD
-a little over 3 outs to a straight (the 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif is dirty)

that gets you over 8 outs, for which you definitely have the odds. by raising you get out any 5s, and hopefully any 2 or 4.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're being way too generous with the outs counting here. I'd give:

- 1 out for the 3s because of the flush and straight possibilities.
- 2 outs for the 4s
- 1 out for the BDFD (it's 4 high, you aren't guaranteed a win even if you do hit, so you can't give 1.5 outs for it)
- 1.5 outs for the 5. The 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif completes the flush as you said, but you are also chopping with any 3. Drawing to only half the pot, you can't count these as full outs.

That's 5.5 outs. We certainly have odds to continue here so that is not in question, but the bet came from close to our right. A raise can (and did) blow the field away when we are still drawing. This is not what we want. We only want to raise when our equity is larger than our pot contribution. By blowing the field away, we minimise the chance of this happening.

In this instance, even with your calculated 8 outs, we have nowhere near enough equity to compensate for the fact that our raise got only 1 caller. This turned out to be a very negative expectation play. My argument is not results oriented; I argue that you are much more likely to end up in this situation by raising than by calling. Calling is, in my mind, clearly the better play.

[/ QUOTE ]

MP1 was an unknown. The reason I bring this up: everyone had called an EP raise and this has to be taken into account.

You guys are right, though... I do have to discount these outs.

I figure the 4's and the backdoor flush are clean. This is worth 3.5 outs together.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the three's are worth 0.5 outs for the flush one and 0.75 outs for the non-flush threes. That's two in total.

We're at 5.5 now.

The 5's are probably worth 2.75 (half and three-quarters).

My count puts me at 8.25!

Hmm...

Maybe I'm over-valuing here.

One problem that I see with raising here is that a gutshot still has odds to call (implied).

but knocking out naked back-door flushes may help me (if I hit the scary 3, for example) and stuff like that. (Edit: naked 6's, for example.)

The possibility for a free card is good, if I pick up an empty backdoor flush, although depending on how many "sand fleas" I have, I may bet the turn for value with the flush draw in addition to the rest of my hand.

Raising to knock out the guy with the highish pair isn't really an awesome idea, because if he hits his set, half the time I'm hitting my backdoor flush draw. Also, I don't have to try to put a huge effort into preventing counterfeit, because I'm likely already against a pair.

The thing that bugs me is that I can't really count on knocking out A3 here or something like that, because those hands aren't held by good players and loose players will call with them. I could really drain my stack trying to get rid of those types of hands without it truly buying the outs that I'm looking for.

--Dave.