Citizenship Abroad to Avoid Paying Taxes...

[KaneKungFu123]

The fact that these UK 'blokes' dont have to pay taxes makes me green with jealousy. I'll owe Uncle Sam an abusrd amount of money, perhaps a $100K at the end of the year. If it costs even half of that to establish citizenship in another country Ill eat my hat.

Has anyone put in any serious research about giving up US citizenship in exchange for that of another country?

[Ulysses]

If you want to renounce your US citizenship and become a citizen elsewhere, this is pretty easy to do in a lot of small countries for a small fee with minimal requirements.

[Punker]

Renouncing your US citizenship is not that easy, especially if the US gov't belives you are doing so for tax purposes. US gov't (http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html)

"Also, persons who wish to renounce U.S. citizenship should also be aware that the fact that a person has renounced U.S. citizenship may have no effect whatsoever on his or her U.S. tax or military service obligations (contact the Internal Revenue Service or U.S. Selective Service for more information)."

[mackthefork]

Sure pop over here for a month, and pay the equivalent of $1100 for a 2001FP, $11 for a gallon of petrol, twice as much as you pay for almost any computer component or any consumer electricals. Pros and cons on everything, I wouldn't move from the UK, but you would be crying out for home after a couple of days, taxes on imaginary earnings or no.

Mack

[Derek in NYC]

People like you make me want to puke.

[Diplomat]

This is a pretty bad idea if you plan on doing anything for a living besides gambling, and because laws are never static.

-Diplomat

[oscark]

I believe I previously read you are in your 20s, which makes this a pretty awful idea.

By the way, from the consistent modesty in your posts, I assume you and BK are related?

Much love,

Oscar

[KaneKungFu123]

why? i dont want bolivian citizenship. im talking uk, france, swiss, etc...

[ QUOTE ]
This is a pretty bad idea if you plan on doing anything for a living besides gambling, and because laws are never static.

-Diplomat

[/ QUOTE ]

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
People like you make me want to puke.

[/ QUOTE ]

likewise

[KaneKungFu123]

stupid nonsense.

[ QUOTE ]
Sure pop over here for a month, and pay the equivalent of $1100 for a 2001FP, $11 for a gallon of petrol, twice as much as you pay for almost any computer component or any consumer electricals. Pros and cons on everything, I wouldn't move from the UK, but you would be crying out for home after a couple of days, taxes on imaginary earnings or no.

Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

[Punker]

It's a bad idea as without US citizenship, you will have troubles working in the US again. The US has also previously put people who renounce citizenship on a "no admit" list to the USA, so you would be unable to return to the US at all in the future (ie, you would be turned back at immigration if you flew in).

More citizenship info (http://www.richw.org/dualcit/faq.html#dontwant)

"Note, incidentally, that former US citizens who are deemed to have renounced their US citizenship in order to avoid paying US taxes are barred from entering the US, under a 1996 act of Congress [Public Law 104-208, § 352; INA § 212(a)(10)(E); 8 USC § 1182(a)(10)(E)]."

[meow_meow]

[ QUOTE ]
why? i dont want bolivian citizenship. im talking uk, france, swiss , etc...

[ QUOTE ]
This is a pretty bad idea if you plan on doing anything for a living besides gambling, and because laws are never static.

-Diplomat

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, go for Swiss. By far the easiest to get, and no worries about military service since they are neutral and all.... /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[lawrence]

I really, really doubt you want to renounce your US citizenship. Are you ever going to want to work or live in the US again?

[ISF]

I knew someone who did this to andorra. There were a variety of drawbacks, including only being able to send like 30 days per year for 10 years here, and is supposed to file taxes for 10 years. I know if you just reside offshore you are exempt from taxes on like your first 80k or so.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
I knew someone who did this to andorra. There were a variety of drawbacks, including only being able to send like 30 days per year for 10 years here, and is supposed to file taxes for 10 years. I know if you just reside offshore you are exempt from taxes on like your first 80k or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey. I live offshore now. Do I get the first 80K of my gambling wins tax free? or is this only for money already being taxed by another country?

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
I really, really doubt you want to renounce your US citizenship. Are you ever going to want to work or live in the US again?

[/ QUOTE ]

no desire to live in usa, but would like to vacation. if i could never return, itd be a real hard decision.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
stupid nonsense.


[/ QUOTE ]

How so? My guess is you either misunderstood what I said, or you are just a silly little kid who has no idea how easy his life is. Eveything costs twice as much here, and we earn a lot less than yanks do.

BTW I didn't mean I don't believe you are winning, all I meant is the UK tax system doesn't treat gambling winnings as income because the players are always net losers when taken together, casino profits are taxed.

Mack

[Punker]

The exemption only applies on earned income, which gambling winnings do not come under.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
why? i dont want bolivian citizenship. im talking uk, france, swiss, etc...

[ QUOTE ]
This is a pretty bad idea if you plan on doing anything for a living besides gambling, and because laws are never static.

-Diplomat

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

EU citizenship is very hard to get.

[Diplomat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why? i dont want bolivian citizenship. im talking uk, france, swiss , etc...

[ QUOTE ]
This is a pretty bad idea if you plan on doing anything for a living besides gambling, and because laws are never static.

-Diplomat

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, go for Swiss. By far the easiest to get, and no worries about military service since they are neutral and all.... /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that in most cases, "neutral" does not mean pacifist, but rather "I guess we are on our own against everybody."
linky (http://http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Military_draft#Switzerland)

-Diplomat

[Diplomat]

I'll be more direct. It would suck to denounce US citizenship for, say, Canadian citizenship, and then have the Canadian government decide to tax gambling. Now you are stuck up here, paying taxes anyway. (not that it would be so bad. /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

-Diplomat

[Jax_Grinder]

Game, set, match.

I, however, do not believe the OP is a net winner such that he would be in the hole to Uncle Sam the tune of $100,000 in income tax.

[theBruiser500]

kkf, interesting idea, but money is money, and not too important. lose some money for flexibility in your life

[querulous]

Set up an offshore corporation. Hire yourself as a contractor, paying whatever minimum amount you think you can convince the authorities you live on. Buy everything else through the company. You'll probably have to move offshore for this to work, but you can retain US citizenship.

[3rdCheckRaise]

Try one of the Baltic countries of old Soviet block. THey sell citizinship for nominal price and working on getting into EU.

[Olof]

The Baltic states are already in the EU. I don't know if this has made it harder to become a citizen, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me.

[meow_meow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why? i dont want bolivian citizenship. im talking uk, france, swiss , etc...

[ QUOTE ]
This is a pretty bad idea if you plan on doing anything for a living besides gambling, and because laws are never static.

-Diplomat

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, go for Swiss. By far the easiest to get, and no worries about military service since they are neutral and all.... /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that in most cases, "neutral" does not mean pacifist, but rather "I guess we are on our own against everybody."
linky (http://http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Military_draft#Switzerland)

-Diplomat

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummmm, exactly. You think the military service is the tough part, you should look into Swiss citizenship. Also, adjust sarcasm detector accordingly.

What, the /images/graemlins/blush.gif wasn't enough of a hint for you?

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
Ummmm, exactly. You think the military service is the tough part, you should look into Swiss citizenship. Also, adjust sarcasm detector accordingly.


[/ QUOTE ]

By what standards can anyone possibly judge the Swiss to ever have been neutral. Politics forum Mack, bahave now.

Mack

[Diplomat]

Yeah, mine is in the shop right now. I figured after the fact.

-Diplomat

[srw5n]

however, I believe if you are filing a schedule C and therefore as aa professional playing poker with the expectation of income (also can deduct expenses and get to agg.) then I believe the exemption applies. If your lumping in other income, it doesn't...

[dogmeat]

Why not just pay your [censored] taxes you weasel?

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[popniklas]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar till:</font><hr />
Why not just pay your [censored] taxes you weasel?

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this post and the one about wanting to puke.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just pay your [censored] taxes you weasel?

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont live in the US.

i never want to return to the US.

i beneft zero from paying taxes to the US.

i hate the US government and feel that they waste tax money.

i feel that the current tax laws are bullshit: especially gambling tax, death tax, gift tax.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
however, I believe if you are filing a schedule C and therefore as aa professional playing poker with the expectation of income (also can deduct expenses and get to agg.) then I believe the exemption applies. If your lumping in other income, it doesn't...

[/ QUOTE ]

can anyone confirm or deny this?

[stigmata]

It's a nice idea but not terribly easy. In particular, flexibility to return to your homeland may be something you find desirable later in life. The second problem is that any desirable country is fairly difficult to acquire citenzenship for, and therefore requires a long-term plan and concerted effort.

You need to look into the rules for EU countries. Marrying an EU citizen is the quickest route. This should, in fact, be easier than it sounds. Meeting a receptive girlfriend/friend is one option. I know two people who have married someone purely to get them UK citezenship. One of these did it as a friend, the other got payed several thousand pounds.

The other option would be to look in to the rules for non-EU east european countries. In particular, Croatia is on the Medditeranian, is cheap, beautiful, friendly, and is a future candidate for the EU (surely a matter of "when", rather than "if"). I believe croatia is in a process of major renewal with a growing tourist industry, and has great potential for investment right now.

It may be worth researching the rules for all EU candidates (I think they are Bulgaria, Croatia, Romania and Turkey(not a good option)), as these could offer a potential "backdoor" for EU membership. Once they are incoporated to the EU you can then move where you like.

If you really want to do this it will take research, a long-term plan and many big decisions, but it is definately do-able.

[Danenania]

Nice post, stigmata.

All you people who say he wouldn't be able to return to the US because of "tax evasion", is this really such a big concern? How likely is it that they would a.) even know that the OP is making significant money if he doesn't use any American banks and b.) be able to prove that he renounced his citizenship for tax reasons? It would be easy to say that he's renouncing in protest of the war or because he has a girlfriend (real or not) in some other country or even just likes the weather. I could of course be wrong as I have no experience with this but it sounds like an empty unenforcable threat to me.

[midas]

Kane-

Did you grow up in the U.S.? If so, you have already benefitted from other peoples tax dollars for your education, health care and overall quality of life that got you to where you are today. If the aformentioned is true, it seems you owe the U.S. government big time.

Now either shut the F-up and pay back your debt to society or burn your U.S. passport in front of the entire 2+2 board.

[Danenania]

This "debt to society" argument is asinine. People don't choose where they are born.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Kane-

Did you grow up in the U.S.? If so, you have already benefitted from other peoples tax dollars for your education, health care and overall quality of life that got you to where you are today. If the aformentioned is true, it seems you owe the U.S. government big time.

Now either shut the F-up and pay back your debt to society or burn your U.S. passport in front of the entire 2+2 board.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might just be the biggest idiot ever.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to renounce your US citizenship and become a citizen elsewhere, this is pretty easy to do in a lot of small countries for a small fee with minimal requirements.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try HERE. (http://www.melchizedek.com/index.shtml) /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Income tax rates on all other income are about 25% higher in the UK than the US. Plus, there's a 17% Value Added Tax on all purchases. Unless poker is your sole source of income, you're better off tax-wise in the US.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
Income tax rates on all other income are about 25% higher in the UK than the US. Plus, there's a 17% Value Added Tax on all purchases. Unless poker is your sole source of income, you're better off tax-wise in the US.

[/ QUOTE ]
i dont think they pay gambling tax in UK.

my sole income is from gambling.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
EU citizenship is very hard to get.

[/ QUOTE ]
And I'd imagine having your career be "poker player" does not help.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
EU citizenship is very hard to get.

[/ QUOTE ]
And I'd imagine having your career be "poker player" does not help.

[/ QUOTE ]

im going to look into singapore.

will update.

[Aceshigh7]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why not just pay your [censored] taxes you weasel?

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont live in the US.

i never want to return to the US.

i beneft zero from paying taxes to the US.

i hate the US government and feel that they waste tax money.

i feel that the current tax laws are bullshit: especially gambling tax, death tax, gift tax.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a tool. This country is better off without you.

[lastsamurai]

I was reading someplace in the virgin islands they dont tax you on gambling and capital gains. I guess thats the place to live if you are a day trader/online snger.

[augie00]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why not just pay your [censored] taxes you weasel?

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont live in the US.

i never want to return to the US.

i beneft zero from paying taxes to the US.

i hate the US government and feel that they waste tax money.

i feel that the current tax laws are bullshit: especially gambling tax, death tax, gift tax.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a tool. This country is better off without you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the worst insult ever, especially because it is completley obvious that the country is not better off without him. He's worth 100k to them! Also, those are good reasons to not want to pay tax to the US government. You don't agree?

Now if he were saying, "yeah, I want to buy a new Fararri, but damnit I just bought a house in the bay area and I don't know if I'll be able to afford both at once. But I could if I didn't have to pay tax!" then you can call him a douche.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just pay your [censored] taxes you weasel?

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Why don't you just submit to governments-ponsored theft?

[Aceshigh7]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why not just pay your [censored] taxes you weasel?

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont live in the US.

i never want to return to the US.

i beneft zero from paying taxes to the US.

i hate the US government and feel that they waste tax money.

i feel that the current tax laws are bullshit: especially gambling tax, death tax, gift tax.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a tool. This country is better off without you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the worst insult ever, especially because it is completley obvious that the country is not better off without him. He's worth 100k to them! Also, those are good reasons to not want to pay tax to the US government. You don't agree?

Now if he were saying, "yeah, I want to buy a new Fararri, but damnit I just bought a house in the bay area and I don't know if I'll be able to afford both at once. But I could if I didn't have to pay tax!" then you can call him a douche.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's completely your opinion. Personally, I prefer the benefit of having one less ignorant, liberal idiot calling himself an American vs. whatever taxes he would be paying.

[jakethebake]

I don;t often agree with kane, but I'll support anyone's efforts to keep their hard-earned money out of the hands of the thieving scum we call government.

[Aceshigh7]

So your one year income is approaching three quarters of a million dollars? I smell bullshit.

[Danenania]

[ QUOTE ]
So your one year income is approaching three quarters of a million dollars? I smell bullshit.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you smoking?

[Aceshigh7]

Besides denigrating the US the OP says he's going to owe ~100K in taxes for the year. If you believe that you're a naive fool.

[GeniusToad]

Simply put: It isn't worth the trouble. Either way you slice it Uncle Sam doesn't forget. If you're able to pull it off, more power to ya.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
I don;t often agree with kane, but I'll support anyone's efforts to keep their hard-earned money out of the hands of the thieving scum we call government.

[/ QUOTE ]

if i were trying to stay in US and not pay, then id be immoral/etc.

the way i see it: taxes are like a membership fee. you pay them, and get the benefits of them.

if i dont want to live i US, why should i pay the membership fee?

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
if i were trying to stay in US and not pay, then I'd be immoral/etc.

the way i see it: taxes are like a membership fee. you pay them, and get the benefits of them.

if i dont want to live i US, why should i pay the membership fee?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well then I take it back. I don't agree with you this time either. It's only immoral if you think economic slavery is moral. What is immoral is forceful appropriation of someone's hard-earned wages under threat of violent detention. Taxes aren't a membership fee. They're nothing more than government-sponsored theft.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
Besides denigrating the US the OP says he's going to owe ~100K in taxes for the year. If you believe that you're a naive fool.

[/ QUOTE ]

100K in taxes is probably between 300 and 400K in profit, maybe even a little less. That is 150-200 buy ins in the games KKF plays, that is not an unreasonable amount. I don't know what your experience is with paying taxes, but his number does not look outlandish to me.

Also, funny thing, US citizens are allowed to have oppinions about their country other than "The US may not always be right, but by god she is never wrong."

(FWIW I think KKF undervalues his US citizenship, but then again, he has lived abroad a lot more than I have, too, so he is not basing his oppinions purely on speculation.)

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that these UK 'blokes' dont have to pay taxes makes me green with jealousy. I'll owe Uncle Sam an abusrd amount of money, perhaps a $100K at the end of the year. If it costs even half of that to establish citizenship in another country Ill eat my hat.

Has anyone put in any serious research about giving up US citizenship in exchange for that of another country?

[/ QUOTE ]


I know I'm asskissing, but god I gotta say i downright /images/graemlins/heart.gif you KKF.

Let me know if this works out, I hope you get the information you need.

[Masquerade]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that these UK 'blokes' dont have to pay taxes makes me green with jealousy. I'll owe Uncle Sam an abusrd amount of money, perhaps a $100K at the end of the year. If it costs even half of that to establish citizenship in another country Ill eat my hat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just "lose it all" to a friendly Brit who will be happy to sign documentation saying he won it as he has zero liability. Rent a private table with dealer in a casino if you want to make it look more legit and have a heads-up freeze-out match.

[stigmata]

I would be more than happy to offer my services /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The fact that these UK 'blokes' dont have to pay taxes makes me green with jealousy. I'll owe Uncle Sam an abusrd amount of money, perhaps a $100K at the end of the year. If it costs even half of that to establish citizenship in another country Ill eat my hat.

[/ QUOTE ]


best.idea.ever
Just "lose it all" to a friendly Brit who will be happy to sign documentation saying he won it as he has zero liability. Rent a private table with dealer in a casino if you want to make it look more legit and have a heads-up freeze-out match.

[/ QUOTE ]

[KaneKungFu123]

ive considered paying a brit a fee to let me play on their party accounts. im generating 30k/year in rakeback alone

downsides:

i dont want to live in england.

USA might put in jail if they worked it out.

you can only carry 10K or some amount out of a country. how would customs think about 19 yo with 10k in cash?

the amount im going to win is too large and id be stuck putting it in a safe deposit box.

if i wanted to buy a house or invest or move my money around a bank, it'd be sketchy. i'd be losing alot by not being able to invest.

USA is so overrated. The public schools really drill it into your head that this is the greatest and most free place on earth, like we are the only ones on earth with electricity or something.

what does the US have on canada, australlia, n.zealand, singapore, japan, malayasia, brunei, half a dozen rich middle eastern countries, EU -- besides more crime, baptists, and obese women?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the fact that these UK 'blokes' dont have to pay taxes makes me green with jealousy. I'll owe Uncle Sam an abusrd amount of money, perhaps a $100K at the end of the year. If it costs even half of that to establish citizenship in another country Ill eat my hat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just "lose it all" to a friendly Brit who will be happy to sign documentation saying he won it as he has zero liability. Rent a private table with dealer in a casino if you want to make it look more legit and have a heads-up freeze-out match.

[/ QUOTE ]

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
USA is so overrated. The public schools really drill it into your head that this is the greatest and most free place on earth, like we are the only ones on earth with electricity or something.

what does the US have on canada, australlia, n.zealand, singapore, japan, malayasia, brunei, half a dozen rich middle eastern countries, EU -- besides more crime, baptists, and obese women?

[/ QUOTE ]
Very true.

[nmt09]

If you're trying to avoid paying tax I wouldn't come to the UK. Although general gambling income is tax free you're still liable to pay tax if you're considered a professional gambler.

I don't know what criteria they use to determine this but it seems to me that a substantial amount of winnings each year would qualify.

Also we pay far more indirect tax on goods and services that our buddies in the US. Over here you'd be lucky to get a half decent house for less than $360,000

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Over here you'd be lucky to get a half decent house for less than $360,000

[/ QUOTE ]

Over here too these days. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[TStoneMBD]

[ QUOTE ]
Well then I take it back. I don't agree with you this time either. It's only immoral if you think economic slavery is moral. What is immoral is forceful appropriation of someone's hard-earned wages under threat of violent detention. Taxes aren't a membership fee. They're nothing more than government-sponsored theft.

[/ QUOTE ]

well played.

and to all those people in this thread who have insulted KKF because his moral beliefs are different then yours, you really need to shut your pipe and stop judging others. id prefer to have a million KKFs in this country then a million holierthanthous.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Over here you'd be lucky to get a half decent house for less than $360,000

[/ QUOTE ]

Over here too these days. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

in miami 360 gets you a duplex in crackton.

[Sponger15SB]

KKF aren't you like 19? Are you SURE you're not going to regret this decision in like 15 years? 30 years?

[nmt09]

I was dreaming the other day and took at look at some internet real estate agents for Vegas and $360,000 buys a lot of house compared to the UK.

Some I was looking at in Vegas for around $725,000 would cost around double that, even more depending on the area for the same type of property but will less land.

The big difference here being a shortage of space so you'll be looking at tiny rooms with a small garden, maybe even none.

--- added ---

I did a search for British tax information on gambling and found this:

UK Tax Info (http://www.taxationweb.co.uk/forum/discuss.php?id=6408)

apparently it is totally tax free even if you're a pro [I stand corrected]

[midas]

Kwai-Chang Kane - like your name-sake you should give up all your worldly possessions and walk the earth. Your first stop should be France, they would embrace your infinite wisdom and make you a national hero. Maybe you and Sean Penn can get together and burn your passports together.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]

what does the US have on canada, australlia, n.zealand, singapore, japan, malayasia, brunei, half a dozen rich middle eastern countries, EU -- besides more crime, baptists, and obese women?


[/ QUOTE ]
This is one of the most retarded things I have ever read.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

what does the US have on canada, australlia, n.zealand, singapore, japan, malayasia, brunei, half a dozen rich middle eastern countries, EU -- besides more crime, baptists, and obese women?


[/ QUOTE ]
This is one of the most retarded things I have ever read.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you an obese baptist?

[KaneKungFu123]

when i was in highschool everyone would wear our school colors on football gamedays because they were a huge fan of our football team, but if their house was a few blocks down then they'd be wearing different colors and routing for a different football team at a different school.

lets say that texas didnt charge a tax on gambling, yet florida did. would i be a sean penn communist for wanting to live in texas instead of florida?

the usa is a country-state. amazingly, there are other country states around the planet earth. does it make me a bad person or a sean penn communist for believing that a different country-state may better fit my desires?

if sean penn wants to burn his passport, what does it matter to you? why do you care?

again, answer me this: IF I DONT LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES, WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO PAY TAXES TO THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT?

[ QUOTE ]
Kwai-Chang Kane - like your name-sake you should give up all your worldly possessions and walk the earth. Your first stop should be France, they would embrace your infinite wisdom and make you a national hero. Maybe you and Sean Penn can get together and burn your passports together.

[/ QUOTE ]

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]


again, answer me this: IF I DONT LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES, WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO PAY TAXES TO THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT?



[/ QUOTE ]

Well, until you change citizenship, to avoid the penalties. (The US is weird, too, about what flies in this regards. Make sure you state your reasons for changing citizenship is other than avoiding taxes, or they will still demand them I think.)

The only other real reasons I can think of are:

When a government invests money in its people, it suffers an up front cost before they become productive. That is, one could argue that you are paying them back for the environment they provided you to grow up in. (This is not quite as BS as it sounds. Sure there are other coutries with comprable amenities, or better ones even, but most of the people in the world are born into worse environments.)

And the real reason... to maintain the option of US citizenship. Even though you may not think it is worth anything, a lot of people (non US citizens) do. Maybe they are onto something. At any rate, 5 or 10 years down the road you may decide that you do want it, and it won't be easy to get back if you ditch it now.

AFAIK, most of the place I would want to raise a family have high tax rates. I certainly would want my tax money going to the country I was living in, though. (Immediately, that is. If it is used for foreign aid to ease the hellish conditions in other parts of the world I have no problem with that.)

Whatever you do, my sincere advice is to plan out your life to the best of your ability before acting. Some good starting questions are:
<ul type="square"> Do I want to have children?
Where do I want to live (raise my family)?
What do I want to accomplish in life?
What is my plan for financial security? (i.e. Do I want to play poker for my entire life? Is that even viable?)
What are the costs, direct and implied, of pursuing a foreign citizenship?
What is the timeline for changing citizenship?
[/list]

This is a life decision. Think hard about the details before you make it. (I am NOT advocating switching or not switching, just due dilligence before deciding on a course of action.)

[KaneKungFu123]

Thanks for taking the time to write this out for me, I really appreciate it.

Im going to have to give all of this some serious thought. With the exception of marriage, it appears highly difficult to obtain citizenship in another first world country.

[MrMon]

There are few places in the world that have first class living conditions and low taxes. The U.S. is about the best combination there is. (There is a reason people want to come here, even from other affluent countries.) Most of the countries on your list have some serious downside if they don't have high taxes. The Middle East? Unless you plan on becoming Muslim, I wouldn't advise it. Japan? You think things are expensive here, try Japan. Not to mention you will NEVER be accepted there. Monaco would be worth a shot if you had major bucks, but you haven't got it yet. Channel Islands would work, but I doubt you can qualify. Plus, they're freakin' tiny islands. Australia, New Zealand, and Canada are all possibilities, but have higher taxes.

However, that's not to say you shouldn't try and lower your taxes even further. If you have the income you claim to, get some serious tax advice on how to avoid taxes now. There are lots of ways to do it. Moving to a zero income tax state such as Texas, Florida, Nevada or New Hampshire would be a start. (Lowest total tax burdens are Alaska, New Hampshire, Delaware, Tennessee, and Alabama.) Buy a house would be next. Fund every retirement plan you can think of, and as someone who is self-employed, you've got some pretty high limits. Buy a business, self-incorporate, there are a million ways to shelter income.

Hire a professional. Good luck.

[FatTony21]

Give Croatia a look. You can get permanent residency permit for having a boat docked there. If you file as a professional gambler, you can exclude up to $80,000 of income per year, so long as you stay outside the US for at least 330 days of a 360 day period. Combine that with other deductions, and you'll pay little to no federal income tax (although you will still pay social security). You won't have to give up US citizenship, in case you do change your mind one day and decide to go back. Another option is going to an EU country that borders a non-EU country (Slovenia and Hungary for example, bordering Croatia and Romania) and traveling to the non-EU country for at least 1 day every 90 days. As a US citizen, you can stay in an EU country for 90 days visa free, and when you cross into the non-EU country and return, you get another 90 days (that's not how the law is technically supposed to work, but it's reality of how it's enforced).

If you really think you'd be happy living outside of the US, then you should do it (although I'd recommend doing it for reasons other than income tax deductions). If you do want to travel, and don't have your heart set on visiting Cuba, then a US passport will get you into more countries hassle free than just about any other.

FWIW, I've been living in Europe for the last 2 years, the last 4 months in Hungary as a professional gambler. It's been a great experience, probably the best of my life so far. That said, for a variety of reasons, I've decided to move back to the US next month. I once looked into non-US citizenship to avoid taxes on gambing, and I'm glad I didn't burn any bridges.

[KaneKungFu123]

"If you file as a professional gambler, you can exclude up to $80,000 of income per year, so long as you stay outside the US for at least 330 days of a 360 day period."

have you done this?

the irs rules clearly show this isnt allowed!

[yvesaint]

Everyone who is attacking KKF for wanting to leave the US - shut up. This thread is not about whether or not KKF's beliefs are right. This thread is KKF asking us how he can change his citizenship to another country. So please, spare the 'people like you make me puke comments'.

KKF, I think if you're going to choose a country, the UK would be the best. Same language, modern, well-developed, and no taxes on gambling, whether you're a pro or not.

[NLSoldier]

You keep talking about how you dont even live in the US right now. Just out of curiousity, where do you live?

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
You keep talking about how you dont even live in the US right now. Just out of curiousity, where do you live?

[/ QUOTE ]

i have an apartment in bkk, thailand, which is my base.

[MrMon]

[ QUOTE ]
"If you file as a professional gambler, you can exclude up to $80,000 of income per year, so long as you stay outside the US for at least 330 days of a 360 day period."

have you done this?

the irs rules clearly show this isnt allowed!

[/ QUOTE ]

Gambling has nothing to do with it. If you live abroad, you get the $80K exemption. Of course, you might have to pay local taxes, but that's another story.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"If you file as a professional gambler, you can exclude up to $80,000 of income per year, so long as you stay outside the US for at least 330 days of a 360 day period."

have you done this?

the irs rules clearly show this isnt allowed!

[/ QUOTE ]

Gambling has nothing to do with it. If you live abroad, you get the $80K exemption. Of course, you might have to pay local taxes, but that's another story.

[/ QUOTE ]

WRONG!!!!

[kagame]

i was born in england and still have citizenship there as well as the US

if i ever get too fed up here im definitely hightailing it back

btw, you REALLY need to file as a professional gambler, pm me if you need a set of links explaining how to do this and whatnot, i dont have it all on this computer

basically if you file as self employed you get tons of tax writeoffs and dont have to pay the steep gambling penalty, its just like anything else

beats losing your citizenship options

btw who else wants to move to japan?

[kagame]

just curious, what are living expenses like in thailand?

you own the appt im assuming?

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
i was born in england and still have citizenship there as well as the US

if i ever get too fed up here im definitely hightailing it back

btw, you REALLY need to file as a professional gambler, pm me if you need a set of links explaining how to do this and whatnot, i dont have it all on this computer

basically if you file as self employed you get tons of tax writeoffs and dont have to pay the steep gambling penalty, its just like anything else

beats losing your citizenship options

btw who else wants to move to japan?

[/ QUOTE ]

hmm...

dont you have to pay SE tax and social security tax if you file as a pro?

i just rent appt. living expenses vary depending on how much i travel. maybe 1k/month.

[MrMon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"If you file as a professional gambler, you can exclude up to $80,000 of income per year, so long as you stay outside the US for at least 330 days of a 360 day period."

have you done this?

the irs rules clearly show this isnt allowed!

[/ QUOTE ]

Gambling has nothing to do with it. If you live abroad, you get the $80K exemption. Of course, you might have to pay local taxes, but that's another story.

[/ QUOTE ]

WRONG!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I bow to your expertise. Never mind that about three clicks on the IRS website will tell you differently, unless you have something in your background I don't know about.

You live for 330 days outside the U.S. per year, you get the exemption. How hard is that for you to understand? Show us where this isn't true? What's your source?

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"If you file as a professional gambler, you can exclude up to $80,000 of income per year, so long as you stay outside the US for at least 330 days of a 360 day period."

have you done this?

the irs rules clearly show this isnt allowed!

[/ QUOTE ]

Gambling has nothing to do with it. If you live abroad, you get the $80K exemption. Of course, you might have to pay local taxes, but that's another story.

[/ QUOTE ]

WRONG!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I bow to your expertise. Never mind that about three clicks on the IRS website will tell you differently, unless you have something in your background I don't know about.

You live for 330 days outside the U.S. per year, you get the exemption. How hard is that for you to understand? Show us where this isn't true? What's your source?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe i am wrong here, which would be a great thing!

mmcd gave a strong argument in the other thread i created about this!

big thanks to you and kagame and any else who mentioned this exemption!

will look into it and update.

[DanS]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why not just pay your [censored] taxes you weasel?

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont live in the US.

i never want to return to the US.

i beneft zero from paying taxes to the US.

i hate the US government and feel that they waste tax money.

i feel that the current tax laws are bullshit: especially gambling tax, death tax, gift tax.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, you live in your mom's basement somewhere in suburban U.S.A. Give it up, haha.

[MrMon]

If we just saved you $20K in taxes, we expect a cut! (Perhaps a donation to the Red Cross? It's tax deductible.)

Keep us updated.

[cognito20]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone who is attacking KKF for wanting to leave the US - shut up. This thread is not about whether or not KKF's beliefs are right. This thread is KKF asking us how he can change his citizenship to another country. So please, spare the 'people like you make me puke comments'.

KKF, I think if you're going to choose a country, the UK would be the best. Same language, modern, well-developed, and no taxes on gambling, whether you're a pro or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I'd prefer Australia or New Zealand over the UK if I was going to be doing something like this. All the same advantages you mentioned, and the prices and cost of living are much cheaper than in the UK. It is NOT easy to immigrate to Australia though, even if you're married/engaged to an Aussie. Easiest way to get in is to have a skill that they're looking for (computer software engineer, chef, etc. - "professional online poker player" isn't one of them) or bring about $500,000 working capital and agree to set up a business there. Don't know about New Zealand in that regard.

--Scott

[amulet]

if you choose to give up your US citizenship, the lovely fellows at the IRS still expect you to pay taxes for 10 years, regardless of where you live. and they enforce it. sorry. just pay them, it is the best and only real option.

[BradleyT]

Link?

[ QUOTE ]
Link?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you renounce U.S. citizenship in order to avoid income tax (which is a rebuttable presumption), and if you have a large enough tax liability over the previous five years (averaged) that you would be avoiding a significant amount of tax ($124,000 in 2004, I believe), then you will be required to fill out forms for the next ten years, and possibly pay some tax.

Here's a link from the IRS (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97245,00.html) for more info. The expatriation tax rules were modified in 2004 to make it more favorable to repatriate your income.

If your making enough to have to pay $100,000 in income taxes hire an attorney. The rich in the US pay very little in taxes due to the their attorneys. If you have no problem living outside the US (as you obviously don't) then that may just be another tool in your arsenal to keep away from taxes.

[TwoNiner]

[ QUOTE ]
In particular, Croatia is on the Medditeranian, is cheap, beautiful, friendly, and is a future candidate for the EU (surely a matter of "when", rather than "if"). I believe croatia is in a process of major renewal with a growing tourist industry, and has great potential for investment right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

And the women are hotter than donut grease.

[Zele]

The Happiest Place on Earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru) (looks like they haven't gotten around to setting up a home page yet.)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I knew someone who did this to andorra. There were a variety of drawbacks, including only being able to send like 30 days per year for 10 years here, and is supposed to file taxes for 10 years. I know if you just reside offshore you are exempt from taxes on like your first 80k or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey. I live offshore now. Do I get the first 80K of my gambling wins tax free? or is this only for money already being taxed by another country?

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read the responses yet, but I know this: talk to an accountant with experience dealing with US expats in your country.

Edit: After reading all the responses, I believe this even more-- see a professional in Thailand that specializes in US expats. If he has experience with pro gamblers that would be a big help as well. I don't think people should cheat on their taxes, but I also don't think that they should pay more than their share. (For example, you may be able to defer/eliminate taxes on a portion of your income by declaring yourself a pro and contributing to a retirement account. I don't know, I am not a tax pro.) In any case, it will be worth the fee.

Also I agree with the other posters that you are underestimating the value of being a US citizen. Of course it is your decision to make, but if I were you I would take my time and talk to alot of people I trust about it, including your parents. It is a decision that will affect you for the rest of your life, and you are a young guy (I know you must be tired of hearing that, but you are young). If you wait two years to make a decision it won't kill you, and even that amount of time will give you a significantly better perspective to make your decision from. You don't want to make a decision that is good for the 19-year-old you and bad for the 25-to-75-year-old you.

Best of luck.

[ QUOTE ]
The rich in the US pay very little in taxes due to the their attorneys.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is soooooo false.

"This is soooooo false."

Actually it's very true. The people that get killed on taxes are the working stiffs that just follow the system. The rich manipulate the system in ways which the rest of us cannot. There are many loopholes that are exploited, a number which are only able to be used if your have the cash on hand to do so. They hire professionals who are experts at doing this.

[ayamaguc]

Actually it's very true.

There can be a lot of argument about fairness of rates, and who receives services, and all of the other social value judgements that our society has to make. There can be no argument though that folks in the top xx% of the U.S. income scale inject the large and disproportionate bulk of income tax revenue to the government. It's really not close.

NTU tables 1999-2003 (http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6)
Analysis of 1999 CBO numbers (http://www.allegromedia.com/sugi/taxes/)
2003 NYT graph on gov't tax recepits (http://bloggy.com/mt/archives/000600.html)

The very bottom xx% of income earners are eligible to receive money BACK to supplement their income through the Earned Income Tax Credit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EITC) (a refundable tax credit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refundable_tax_credit)) which can "result in a net payment to the taxpayer beyond their own payments into the tax system".

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Better you hire a good accountant. A financial planner, too, if you have enough to owe $100K in US Federal taxes.

[ QUOTE ]
There can be a lot of argument about fairness of rates, and who receives services, and all of the other social value judgements that our society has to make. There can be no argument though that folks in the top xx% of the U.S. income scale inject the large and disproportionate bulk of income tax revenue to the government. It's really not close.

NTU tables 1999-2003
Analysis of 1999 CBO numbers
2003 NYT graph on gov't tax recepits

The very bottom xx% of income earners are eligible to receive money BACK to supplement their income through the Earned Income Tax Credit (a refundable tax credit) which can "result in a net payment to the taxpayer beyond their own payments into the tax system".

[/ QUOTE ]

Taking your 2003 NYT graph for example. It is showing a percentage of the REPORTED income. My opinion is that the rich are not reporting their income, they are hiding it in corporations (that are paying a lower tax rate than someone self employed) and various other legal structures before it gets to the point of reporting it.

My point was not made to show an unfairness or put down those that have built wealth (letting the government steal the money that you've made would be unfair) but rather state that Kane has the advantage of having some cash behind him which would allow him to manipulate the system rather than making a permanent decision to give up US citizen ship would could have long term ramifications outside of the tax arena.

[ QUOTE ]

Taking your 2003 NYT graph for example. It is showing a percentage of the REPORTED income. My opinion is that the rich are not reporting their income, they are hiding it in corporations (that are paying a lower tax rate than someone self employed) and various other legal structures before it gets to the point of reporting it.


[/ QUOTE ]

No way. First of all, no accountant in their right mind would assist someone in setting this up and then sign off on the tax return and risk going to jail. Also, you cannot "hide your income in a corporation." How do you lay claim on it when you decide to bring it out of hiding without getting busted?

edit

I am sorry I did not realize this thread was a couple of days old when I replied

[ QUOTE ]
How do you lay claim on it when you decide to bring it out of hiding without getting busted?

[/ QUOTE ]

The shadiest I've heard of is a loan from a corporation to the person. Paying the intrest only on the loan at a lower percentage than what the taxable portion would have been if it was a draw or salary payout.

On the not shady level, if you have a company making money you keep a large percentage of the profits inside the corporation (paying a smaller tax fee) until you are retired and then taking the profits when your income is lower. There are many ways to structure your finances above board to limit your tax liability with proper planning, and being rich (having cash on hand) makes this easier to do as opposed to being a working stiff for $10 - $15 per hour.

If it is a corporation there is no single owner. I do not understand how an indivdual can withdrawl profits from a public company. If it was his personal store or company I would understand, but when the company is public the profits are the property of all of the shareholders. Maybe I am not understanding you.

As for your corporate loan part, I agree those are shady. They are what got Tyco in so much trouble with that jerk who held the board hostage for millions in "personal loans" so he could do things like throw a 10 million dollar birthday party for his wife.

You can have a corporation with one or two owners (shareholders). They also don't have to be publically traded.

[ QUOTE ]
You can have a corporation with one or two owners (shareholders). They also don't have to be publically traded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry for not understanding you. When you said corporations I thought of the publicly traded ones. It never occured to me you may of meant privately held ones.

[ QUOTE ]

The shadiest I've heard of is a loan from a corporation to the person. Paying the intrest only on the loan at a lower percentage than what the taxable portion would have been if it was a draw or salary payout.


[/ QUOTE ]

The problem here is that doing what you are saying is illegal. SEC rules apply equally to private, closely held corporations. Doing things along the lines of what you mentioned is self-dealing, which is an improper abuse of the corporate form.

What many of you are forgetting is that if you are filthy rich, unless you are really greedy or a criminal, there's little reason to conduct these schemes. There are a lot of legal ways to structure your finances so that you can reduce your income tax burden, while keeping yourself out of legal trouble.

Additionally, you are forgetting that even if you theoretically have a corporation hold your money and then take it as income later, the money will be taxed twice - first as corporate income/profit, and secondly as personal income. For those of you saying to yourself, "Who is going to ever find out?" don't think that you are going to get away with it. If you have large amounts of income, you will not be able to easily move it around without anybody noticing eventually. Then the IRS will knock on your door, and you will wish you had just paid the tax!

[unlucky513]

are you an only child?

do you have any friends that you dont use a keyboard to talk to?

i'm baffled that someone your age can just up and leave the US and never be interested in returning.