My first month as a (semi) Pro - 632 sngs & commentary

[augie00]

First, the results:

PokerStars $109+5 turbo

1) 97
2) 92
3) 91
4) 83
5) 84
6) 102
7) 82
8) 61
9) 40

ITM - 280/632 = 44.3%

ROI - $72,048 in buyins
- $88,549 in wins
- $16,501 profit
- 22.9% ROI

My first month as a full time poker player has been much more of a roller coaster than I thought it would be. I thought playing SNGs would lessen my variance, but I was wrong; or perhaps I had never delt with such a great deal of money before. Dropping 15 buyins is (statistically) insignificant, but when you realize that your bankroll is $1710 less than it was three hours ago, and when you're working off of a $4000 roll, it is harder to deal with than I planned.

I went through two major downswings over the month. One downswing cost me 21 buyins, and the other was 16 buyins. They were both in the span of aproximatley one week. During both of those weeks I doubted my ability a lot. I wasn't busting early; I was crawling to the bubble without cards to play, and then losing coinflips to miss the money. I was getting all-in PF in tons of dominating situations...AK vs. AJ, KQ vs QJ, etc...and losing, losing, losing, over and over.

When you go two weeks without showing a profit, and you're supposed to be doing this for a LIVING, it is quite discouraging. I kept my head held high, and realized one of the major leaks in my game; MTTs.

I just can't resist entering that Monday morning $320 where I'm not even sure if I'm EV+, and countless $350k guaranteeds without a cash can suck up profits VERY fast. If I want to win any real cash this summer, I'm going to have to stop entering these big MTTs. I'm going to stick to the $11r and the Wednesday night $150+12 when I am in a tournament mood, otherwise I am going to stick to the SNGs. I have also been playing some 5/10 and 10/20 limit, and that has been going fine. I'm going to give up the 2/4 NL game however, there are far too many regulars in that game to make it profitable. All the fish in that game have already busted out.

I'm going to keep my head on straight, hit the next month full force, and my university and Uncle Sam will hopefully be taken care of by the end of summer (with a little leftover for a car)

[lastchance]

You made $16,000 as a college student playing poker. Be proud.

[Jim C]

Hi Augie,

I have been a pro for around 6 months.

Yes the variances kill you, and you always go through periods of doubt. However, I find that my daily post mortem analysis of all my games helps me to keep my level.

I found that when i started my MTT was my leak too, but after a while, I found that leak became plugged once I became aware of it, and actively worked on that section.

The best way imho to become the best player you abilities will allow you to be, is to play the games, and if you are losing, as a pro player not to run away, but to seriously work at isolation, then a solution.

I found that this is the path for continual maxium accellerated development of my poker skills.

Goodluck with it all.

[Scuba Chuck]

Only 632 in one month as a pro? You're really slacking. Get your workboots on. Get to work. Looks like you only worked for two weeks.

Scuba
who's green with envy. Nice results.

[Karak567]

Mind if I ask how many hours you played a day, what time of day and on what day of the week?

I am thinking of "going semi-pro" (college student here as well) for the summer... Doing very well at the 33s... but thanks to a 1st place finish in the Stars 10 + 1 10 minute blind level MTT tonight... I have MORE than enough to do 55s... hell I have 50x buy-in at the 109s (not ready for that yet)...

[Freudian]

Very nice results. Treat yourself to a super sized meal.

About the downswings. Being pounded by the deck is hard for everyone. Only way to keep your head up is to look at the spots you get your money in. It is usually better than the results indicate (although a big drop usually means running into big hands more often than normal). The other hard element to this is that you never feel the same way about good luck. If you have a 100 coinflip that ends up 30/70, you will definately feel much worse compared to the good feeling of a 70/30 run. At least that is the way it works for me.

[augie00]

[ QUOTE ]
Mind if I ask how many hours you played a day, what time of day and on what day of the week?



[/ QUOTE ]

I do not play much on weekends. My daily hours vary...some days I will play ALL DAY (literally) and some days I will play 2-3 hours at night.

Don't get the wrong idea everyone. This post may have seemed a little down, but I am overjoyed with my results and my ROI. If every month goes as well as this one I will be one happy camper.

edit: I know some may criticize for not playing on weekends, but I am rarely home on the weekends, I go out of town so I can be with my friends. Weekends aren't that much more profitable (as far as SNGs are concerned) anyway.

[Myst]

Congrats on your good stats. Hopefully you can keep them up.

Two questions:

1) How is the structure for the PokerStars turbos. Ive personally never played them, so I would like to know how they compare to Party's.

2) Does Pokerstars offer rakeback?

[ekky]

Does anyone with first hand experience know roughly how much Augie would have generated in rake-back on party?

I dont know whether your style of play lends itself to the structure of party sng's, but it looks like the rake-back you are missing out on would be pretty significant.

also, do you play turbo's for higher sng turnover? I always found that i achieved much better results in the non-turbo $100 sng's on stars. (they tended to fill up a bit slower.. so that might influence your decision)

Good figures Augie

[Karak567]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone with first hand experience know roughly how much Augie would have generated in rake-back on party?


[/ QUOTE ]

I get 26 % rakeback on Empire.

Assuming Augie gets 26 % rakeback (and assuming he plays the 100 + 9s at Party)... that is... $1457.82 in rakeback.

BTW - thanks for your answers Augie, I'm looking at getting to your level.

[TheNoodleMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone with first hand experience know roughly how much Augie would have generated in rake-back on party?


[/ QUOTE ]
well if we assume 100+9, then 632 SNGs would be $5688 in rake. At 30% rakeback, that would be another $1706.

[ekky]

heh.

I guess with a modicum of application I should have been able to figure this one out.

As a disclaimer I didn't know if it was generated that easily.

So... given that it is more then 10% of his Net profits..... does the structure of the stars sng's lead our OP to believe he has more then a 10% edge on pokerstars over party?

[Karak567]

[ QUOTE ]
heh.

I guess with a modicum of application I should have been able to figure this one out.

As a disclaimer I didn't know if it was generated that easily.

So... given that it is more then 10% of his Net profits..... does the structure of the stars sng's lead our OP to believe he has more then a 10% edge on pokerstars over party?

[/ QUOTE ]

Also note on Stars he pays approx .046 % of the buy-in in rake.

On Party he pays .09 % of the buy-in in rake. With a 26 % rakeback that's like paying .0234 % of the buy-in in rake.

I don't know if all the math I did was just worthless now that I look at it... but I am posting it anyways!!!

[Bigwig]

Those are good results, Aug.

Keep it up.

I'm halfway to pro.

Will be 75% there by the end of the summer.

[joeblo]

augie00

Congrats on such a fabulous month /images/graemlins/laugh.gif.


Hi everyone...im new to the 2+2 forums and so far have found lots of great info and learned a lot from all of you. I've been playing SNG leisurly on PP and doing decently but I've never thought about the possibility of playing it full time until I found this site.

I have a couple of questions if some of you more seasoned pros can answer them...i'd really appreciate it.

First...how much of a bankroll will i need? Do i need 100x buyin?

Second...how do I sign up for a rakeback and from what i've read...SNG buy-in's qualify for rakeback...is this correct?

Most of my poker experience has been playing live games at the local cardrooms, mostly limit and few of the lower limit no-limit games that are available.

Any input would be greatly appreciated and I look forward to learning more from you all.

[Sabrazack]

100 buying should be enough if you are a winning player.
Look at the ads that are all over this site for rakeback deals, or google for them.

And yes, SNG:s qualify for rakeback on partypoker and its skins.

[PrayingMantis]

Nice results for this month of playing, augie.

[ QUOTE ]
I kept my head held high, and realized one of the major leaks in my game; MTTs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know for sure, but I bet you had some amazing MTT run some time ago, and you feel it can happen again. I know for myself - I had a few great MTT runs in the past year, hitting FTs like crazy etc, but when you run cold on MTTs, and you can run super cold, it can pretty much turn into a poker nightmare. Even if you think you're a strong MTT player, playing them "for a living" is extremely tough. And at some point it can sure turn into what you call a leak, espcially if you're playing a bit over your head in terms of buy-ins. I mean, playing a lot of $100-$300 buy-in MTTs, can easily kill pretty fast a bankroll of ~$4000 (that's the initial BR you are talking about, right?), not to talk about the energy you put into it. If you don't realize it, it can turn into kind of a gambling problem, IMO. But I think you do realize it.

I'm saying all this because I know exactly where you're at, in terms of balancing between the "passion" for MTTs, and the need to make constant $$ at the SNGs (don't get me wrong, I really love SNGs too). So anyway, I hope you'll keep running good (we played together a few games recently if you remember... was fun. /images/graemlins/grin.gif).

[Blarg]

Grats Augie, that's a nice ROI and a very nice monthly income.

[Page Jacobson]

I added your numbers up and came up with 732. That makes your ITM at 38%. Still pretty good.

[PrayingMantis]

Hey augie, I was looking more closely at the numbers, and I think you counted/calculated them wrong:

First, there are 732 games.

That's $83,448 in buy-ins.
You have $89,113 in wins.
That is $5665 in profit.
For an ROI of 6.79%.

Am I missing something?

(edit: fixed 6.76% ROI to 6.79%)

[Blarg]

His post was very unclear.

He's probably got more than one level of game in there.

[Page Jacobson]

[ QUOTE ]
His post was very unclear.

He's probably got more than one level of game in there.

[/ QUOTE ]

What was unclear? All his calculations are based on 632 games played. Redo the numbers and his profit is $10,852.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Redo the numbers and his profit is $10,852.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. It is $5665. It is a 9-player SNG, where prizes are $472.5/$283.5/$189.

[Blarg]

You're right, it wasn't unclear.

However, it was 732 games, not 632.

Which gives him:

83,448 in buy-ins
88,549 in wins, which I didn't recheck
5,101 in wins
ROI of 6.11%

or by using PM's win figure

89,113 in wins
5665 profits
6.78% ROI (I think PM misread the last digit)

At any rate, there's a drastic difference going on.

[Page Jacobson]

my mistake. I thought the payouts were 500, 300, and 200.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
88,549 in wins, which I didn't recheck

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still getting $89,113 (actually $89,113.5). So my last numbers you quote should be right.

[Blarg]

In using the windows accessories calculator, doing the equation 5665 profits / 83448 buy-ins = 6.78865 % ROI, compared to your 6.76 % ROI.

Dunno if one of our calculators is off a bit, or what.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
In using the windows accessories calculator, doing the equation 5665 profits / 83448 buy-ins = 6.78865 % ROI, compared to your 6.76 % ROI.

Dunno if one of our calculators is off a bit, or what.

[/ QUOTE ]

I edited my post with the ROI number and fixed it to 6.79% few minutes after I initially posted it. You can look back there and see. So we have the same number.

[augie00]

Man. I do math good. I know it was late last night, but I should have seen something wrong with a 22% ROI when at my peak I was around 14% for the month...and the fact that I neglected ONE HUNDRED sngs? wtf?

[pergesu]

Not to mention the fact that you overshot your profit by a good 10k :P

[Nato76]

There is rakeback off of SnG's? Same with Eurobet?

[Crispy86]

[ QUOTE ]
Man. I do math good. I know it was late last night, but I should have seen something wrong with a 22% ROI when at my peak I was around 14% for the month...and the fact that I neglected ONE HUNDRED sngs? wtf?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just a question. Could you elaborate on how much multi-tabling you do? I admit I play much lower stakes tables, and thus have no idea what a decent ROI at this level should be, but wondered whether you might not find it more profitable to play on $55 SNGs.

Albert

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
There is rakeback off of SnG's? Same with Eurobet?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, your vig (entry fee) is rake. If you've got a 25% deal, you get a quarter back for every dollar in vig you pay. Thus a $200+15 player would get $3.75 for every tourney he plays.

[Bluff Daddy]

rakeback is so sweet

[Nato76]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is rakeback off of SnG's? Same with Eurobet?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, your vig (entry fee) is rake. If you've got a 25% deal, you get a quarter back for every dollar in vig you pay. Thus a $200+15 player would get $3.75 for every tourney he plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you sir.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Man. I do math good. I know it was late last night, but I should have seen something wrong with a 22% ROI when at my peak I was around 14% for the month...and the fact that I neglected ONE HUNDRED sngs? wtf?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I guess it could happen to anybody. Although a difference of more than $10K in net profit for the month (you were actually thinking you made 3x the money you really made...) is a bit big, no matter how you look at it. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

You still made some nice money.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
I added your numbers up and came up with 732. That makes your ITM at 38%. Still pretty good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I was kinda suprised it took someone this long to notice. Now is the first time I looked at his post and this was the very first thing I realized.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I was kinda suprised it took someone this long to notice. Now is the first time I looked at his post and this was the very first thing I realized.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean that you just look at this list of numbers:

[ QUOTE ]
1) 97
2) 92
3) 91
4) 83
5) 84
6) 102
7) 82
8) 61
9) 40


[/ QUOTE ]

And you just immidiately realize it adds up to 732 and not 632? Or that 632 looks too low? I'm really interested to know, it's not like I don't believe you or something.

[Moonsugar]

this thread is out of control

[augie00]

Well, I didn't really think that I made that much more...I thought that I had LOST a LOT more playing MTTs than I did. But I guess I'm not doing so bad in MTTs if I've only made 6k from sngs.

[TheNoodleMan]

hopefully you can still manage to survive off of $6K a month

[Ixnert]

[ QUOTE ]


You mean that you just look at this list of numbers:

[ QUOTE ]
1) 97
2) 92
3) 91
4) 83
5) 84
6) 102
7) 82
8) 61
9) 40


[/ QUOTE ]

And you just immidiately realize it adds up to 732 and not 632? Or that 632 looks too low? I'm really interested to know, it's not like I don't believe you or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not the poster you responded to, but the way to make that work is to look at it like this:

1) about 100
2) about 100
3) about 100
4) about 80 (or even better, 100-20)
5) about 80 (100-20)
6) about 100
7) about 80 (100-20)
8) about 60
9) 40

So you've got 7 hundreds, another hundred from the 60+40, minus three 20s. Still a margin of error on it (sometimes a substantial one), but good for sanity checks.

[steaknshake925]

I also would like to ask you augie, why do you only play on stars? you are playing at limits where rakeback has a huge effect on income. what is about pokerstars that makes you pass on other sites where you can get rakeback? are the games that much better there?

steak

[gisb0rne]

I'm confused, why do people keep talking about rakeback on Party when they stopped that about a month ago?

[pergesu]

I still get rakeback on Empire, Multi, and Euro.

[gisb0rne]

So when they say Party they mean Empire, etc.?

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You mean that you just look at this list of numbers: [ QUOTE ]
1) 97
2) 92
3) 91
4) 83
5) 84
6) 102
7) 82
8) 61
9) 40



[/ QUOTE ] And you just immidiately realize it adds up to 732 and not 632? Or that 632 looks too low? I'm really interested to know, it's not like I don't believe you or something.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm not the poster you responded to, but the way to make that work is to look at it like this:

1) about 100
2) about 100
3) about 100
4) about 80 (or even better, 100-20)
5) about 80 (100-20)
6) about 100
7) about 80 (100-20)
8) about 60
9) 40

So you've got 7 hundreds, another hundred from the 60+40, minus three 20s. Still a margin of error on it (sometimes a substantial one), but good for sanity checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK this is very obvious, but that is not "just taking a look", in my book. You are actually trying to figure out if the numbers add up to something or not. I think the normal reaction to such a post (if you don't suspect something is off), after the OP *says* he played 632, is to simply take a very brief look at these numbers and say: "yeah ok" and not even bother too actually see if they fit what he says.

But I guess it's good that some people actually do that... It is very important, after all. And also, it's good that augie put his actual finishes for all the games, otherwise no one could have noticed anything. And it seems that even augie didn't really notice he made only $5.5K and not $16K playing SNGs this month... so in this sense this forum really helped him to realize how exactly he was doing. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[augie00]

I am glad someone pointed it out. After I made this post I went to make a sandwich, and I was thinking about how much I'm going to pay in taxes, and trying to figure out where all my money went. I mean, I blow it all the time...I didn't think I blew THAT much.

How about we let this thread die.

[Blarg]

I'm not sure the explanation is an upgrade from the assertion.

[Blarg]

Sorry for the non-dying, I already posted another before I read yours.

By the way, you just gave me quite a good new fantasy to incorporate into my staple rotation: being at a point where the difference between 6k and 16k wasn't particularly -- even outrageously -- noticeable.

[GtrHtr]

Man, this may be a huge leak! Are you sure you are calculating pot odds etc. correctly too?


















Sorry man, just kidding. You made about 5k more than me. Well done.

[Crispy86]

[ QUOTE ]
I am glad someone pointed it out. After I made this post I went to make a sandwich, and I was thinking about how much I'm going to pay in taxes, and trying to figure out where all my money went. I mean, I blow it all the time...I didn't think I blew THAT much.

How about we let this thread die.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't sweat it. Thanks for sharing your results. Good luck in your next month anyhow, and look forward to reading about it. Peace.

Albert

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
I also would like to ask you augie, why do you only play on stars? you are playing at limits where rakeback has a huge effect on income. what is about pokerstars that makes you pass on other sites where you can get rakeback? are the games that much better there?

steak

[/ QUOTE ]

109+5 means he pays less rake than someone with rakeback on Party.

[Biloxi]

I cant stand the turbo SNGs. It must be good for your style of play though. You do better at turbo? or just play them to save time. OH yea, why are you still in college if you can pull in around $16k a month? well over $100k a year is much more then your college degree will ever get you.
and you should be getting numerous freeroll entry invites for your level of purchases, those can help you out.

[pergesu]

Because he only made like $5.5k, which a college degree ought to obliterate, if it's a non-crappy degree and he can find a non-crappy job.

[gisb0rne]

5.5k for about 25 hours a week is not something most people with college degrees will ever see.

[Blarg]

That's a lotta if's in today's economy, and most people aren't getting anywhere near that straight out of college, much less obliterating it.

[TheNoodleMan]

there is more to college than getting a job. Having an education is +ev.

[Mr_J]

These are stars turbos guys. No rakeback.

[steaknshake925]

[ QUOTE ]
109+5 means he pays less rake than someone with rakeback on Party.

[/ QUOTE ]

can you explain this further? what does 109+5 mean? thx

[Your Mom]

[ QUOTE ]
Because he only made like $5.5k, which a college degree ought to obliterate, if it's a non-crappy degree and he can find a non-crappy job.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most college grads will not make anywhere near 66,000.

[chisness]

This can't really be explained because it's 105+9 not 109+5.

[Al P]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because he only made like $5.5k, which a college degree ought to obliterate, if it's a non-crappy degree and he can find a non-crappy job.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most college grads will not make anywhere near 66,000.

[/ QUOTE ]

With insurance + benes + 401K matching someone making $35K salary will make pretty close to $60K in "compensation" for the year.

Plus you can work, play SnG's part time and earn an extra 10-20K FA money each year.

[Joseph Busti]

[ QUOTE ]
You made $16,000 as a college student playing poker. Be proud.

[/ QUOTE ]

[eastbay]

I'm confused. How can you go "pro" and make a 300% error in your first month's profit and not notice?

eastbay

[Biloxi]

[ QUOTE ]
there is more to college than getting a job. Having an education is +ev.

[/ QUOTE ]

no doubt its +ev, but alot of ppl get a degree just to say they have one. Ive been "educating" myself for 3 years and I dont feel much smarter /images/graemlins/crazy.gif
And what do you mean non-crappy job?
dont forget he can save major cash on taxes /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[goodguy_1]

it's only a $10K difference..no big deal /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
this is an hilarious thread

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because he only made like $5.5k, which a college degree ought to obliterate, if it's a non-crappy degree and he can find a non-crappy job.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most college grads will not make anywhere near 66,000.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn right. Most of my fellow pilots are stooping to getting flight instructor jobs making $16-$18k/yr. I refuse. I have a 4-year degree and a lot of flight certificates. I'm worth more than that.