A time to check

[damaniac]

Picked up a crap hand in the BB 3-way that flopped good, but hit a snag on the turn when I "improved" to two pair and ran into a quite possible straight.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, SB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero...</font>

I know that one likes to "check with outs" when a raise will force you to fold (as it would here). However, while this is easy last to act, I have to wonder what to do when one player checked and another is still to act. If I check, I fear that UTG may be encouraged to bluff at the pot (or not, no reads on him) and I'm in a very uncertain position (call the turn? Do what on the river?). Reads would be nice but alas this is my second orbit.

[toss]

I think this may be a bet/fold situation. If they both just call I'd probably bet/fold the river.

[Stack]

I think I check with the intention of calling one bet. If Sb had the straight, I don't think he would go for a c/r on the turn as he would think that the 3 will scare you. So I'd worry about UTG only. Nothing says that he has an A and he probably doesn't have a 6. I would actually welcome a bluff from him

I would check/call and check/call. (unless of course SB does c/r the turn -&gt; I would fold)

Edit: if turn is checked around and river checked to you, bet

[ihardlyknowher]

Tough one. I check here and bet and raise are my two favorite words.

But I am going to SD, unless there is a lot of action or I get counterfeited.

[sy_or_bust]

The problem with bet/fold is that a typical UTG will almost always hold an ace (passive players may play weak overpairs this way), and you really don't want to be raised. On the other hand, you don't have odds to fill up and split on the river. Bet/fold is fine, but honestly I think checking and folding is acceptable as well.

Now if UTG will limp hands like QJs, KJs, and especially weak offsuit hands like KJ-KQ, then you are in much better shape and should certainly bet.

[Nick C]

This is difficult, especially without reads.

But let's see. UTG could have called the flop with quite a few things, including overcards plus a wheel draw, overcards without a wheel draw, and overcards plus a flush draw. I think he'll fold a hand like KJo now if you bet, but you'll get called (or possibly semibluff-raised) by a flush draw, and a completed wheel will raise or wait until the river with the idea of raising then. (I'm not ruling out an overpair like 77 either, by the way.)

SB is a factor too, of course, and I think his hand range is wider. I think he's also less likely to be ahead of you on the turn.

If SB's turn plan is to check-fold (I'm not assuming it is, but just for the sake of argument) and UTG will bluff KJo if checked to but fold it if you bet, then you do gain by checking those times he has a hand that's drawing to just a chop against you so long as you're not planning to check-fold. But a not insignificant amount of the time that he bets, he'll be doing so because he just made his hand.

Hmm. Whether you check and then call or bet and get called, the river is going to be uncomfortable on a blank.

Anyway, I think sometimes I'd check and call one on the turn, and sometimes I'd bet-fold instead. I don't really know what's best, and mostly I've succeeded in confusing myself in this response.

If I did check-call the turn and ended up heads-up with UTG on the river, on any non-diamond card that didn't give me a boat, I'd probably check and call again. (On a diamond, I'd consider check-folding, because of the small pot and the added ways for me to lose.) However, if UTG actually went ahead and bet the river instead of taking his free showdown or giving up, I wouldn't be very confident when I called.

[damaniac]

Given the pot size, looking to induce and pickoff a bluff isn't going to be good unless I am certain that the player in question is basically always going to bet when checked to (hence his bluffing frequency will be very high) and/or he is unlikely to continue on the river unless he has a straight/flush, meaning my effective odds of catching his bluff and improving are better (since having to call two bets to keep him honest gives me 5:2 + those times I improve, which means he has to bluff a heck of a lot, whereas it is only 4:1 + improvement when he will only bluff the turn, since I can fold on the river). Being readless I of course have no way of knowing any of this.

Those diamonds create a puzzling circumstance too. Suppose I check/call and we're HU on the river and one hits. I'd fold if he bet, but what about betting the diamond myself? Obviously small pots are not the best time to be thinking about bluffing but I'd think that he might fold a significant portion of the time when he doesn't have the flush.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
Those diamonds create a puzzling circumstance too. Suppose I check/call and we're HU on the river and one hits. I'd fold if he bet, but what about betting the diamond myself? Obviously small pots are not the best time to be thinking about bluffing but I'd think that he might fold a significant portion of the time when he doesn't have the flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's hard to say, because, while people fold to me on the river a lot at 3/6, I don't know for certain what hands they're dropping.

My guess, though, is that very few players would dump a straight on the river if you bet on a third diamond. I have doubts about someone releasing, for instance, a slowplayed set of fives, too.

[thejameser]

i would check/call down with no reads. at least then i could sleep at night.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
Given the pot size, looking to induce and pickoff a bluff isn't going to be good unless I am certain that the player in question is basically always going to bet when checked to (hence his bluffing frequency will be very high) and/or he is unlikely to continue on the river unless he has a straight/flush, meaning my effective odds of catching his bluff and improving are better (since having to call two bets to keep him honest gives me 5:2 + those times I improve, which means he has to bluff a heck of a lot, whereas it is only 4:1 + improvement when he will only bluff the turn, since I can fold on the river).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm thinking that if he'll bluff and then continue his bluff on the river far too often, then that's good for you too (so long as you know about this tendency and plan on calling twice). I do think that a lot of players who take a stab when checked to on the turn will fire again unimproved on the river, heads-up. I'm not at all sure that very many 3/6 players will take a stab on this board on the turn versus a flop bettor and caller in the first place, though.

[ QUOTE ]
Being readless I of course have no way of knowing any of this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this does add to your difficulties in the hand, though I do think the hand would be difficult anyway, unless your opponents were very predictable.

[damaniac]

Yes I agree that if he'll continue with bluffs far too often, easy call down. The problem is that in this pot, "far too often" is going to be like 35% of the time or something, which is quite a bit to be firing on both streets, at least one of which contains two opponents. I have no idea if an unknown is likely to do that.

Anyway I decided to bet, UTG folded, SB check-raised. Funny that everyone ignored him.