Bison said it was routine

[SomethingClever]

Haha.... I posted this in OOT by accident at first.

I call down a *lot*. Despite my poor went to SD.

Is this, in fact, routine?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.70 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.70 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.70 BB

[StellarWind]

.

[pshabi]

Me plays it like that too.

Me also very /images/graemlins/mad.gif that he flushed me on the river.

[ISF]

I Cap the flop. This CO threebet is way more likely to be a flush draw or weaker 10 then a set.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

cap the flop or raise the turn. I think hes on a weaker T or a draw.

[Trix]

What range do you put him on since you dont cap the flop ?

[freehat]

Either cap the flop or check-raise the turn, hes got a weaker ten or flush draw, with an outside chance of a set.

[dantheman_05]

why not lead the turn? call his 3 bet on flop and lead turn.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I Cap the flop. This CO threebet is way more likely to be a flush draw or weaker 10 then a set.

[/ QUOTE ]
He could also have two pair, an overpair, or another AT with a heart or two. There are lots of ways you could be miles behind here.

You could easily be behind when he does have a flush draw. K /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif has 54.4% pot equity. Some other pot equities on the flop:

A /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif: 36.2%
A /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif 46.8%
A /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/heart.gif 68.2%
T /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 46.4%
J /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif: 17.1%
5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif: 72.9%
J /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif: 78.1%
5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif: 96.7%

That he might have 3-bet a flush draw doesn't help you much here. Your average pot equity against a typical range of suited heart hands that coldcalled preflop is probably not much over 50%.

Don't confuse being ahead most of the time with favorable pot equity. When he actually has the hand he should have for his play you tend to be buried. When he is drawing you may have a modest advantage. Or not. But the only way a flop cap is +EV is when Villain is a major LAG. No such read was provided.

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
The selected post/thread has been added to your list. You will see this entry in 'My Home' until you remove it if you added it as a Favorite. You also will get any replies to your Favorite threads emailed to you if you have this option enabled in your profile. Reminders will not be emailed to you and will go away once you make a reply to the post. In a moment you will be automatically returned to the forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the great posts Stellar.

[J.R.]

you're missing a few hands. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Bonus- what percentage of 5-10 players colcall JJ here preflop? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

either way, since you don't cap the flop, u check the turn irrespective? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sinfulslick18]

i would cap the flop

-sinful

[ALL1N]

You've made good points for not capping the flop. I think that checking and calling non-heart turn cards is missing a lot of value though (especially turn cards that almost halve the number of sets you're up against!).

[helpmeout]

Pretty standard

[kiddo]

5 of the 9 hands u mention got 2 hearts. So if no heart on turn we should bet, right?

I would often play it like that. Call 3bet and bet if draw doesnt hit.

[SomethingClever]

What's his equity with AK /images/graemlins/heart.gif?

[joker122]

Does BB fold to CO's flop 3bet?

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
Does BB fold to CO's flop 3bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's all-in.

[joker122]

in that case i cap the flop.

[TwoNiner]

Stellar's numbers give a lot of weight to checkraising a non heart turn. Those equities would look a lot better with one to come and we'd get more $$$ out of the lower ten alot of us were suspecting on the flop.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
What's his equity with AK /images/graemlins/heart.gif?

[/ QUOTE ]
46.8%. Was that his actual hand?

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
Stellar's numbers give a lot of weight to checkraising a non heart turn. Those equities would look a lot better with one to come and we'd get more $$$ out of the lower ten alot of us were suspecting on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

check raising a safe turn card has alot of merit, but i would hate to get 3bet on the turn and have to call down.

also, SW listed all the hands that our equity is marginal against (like 2 hearts and 2 overs), and, for whatever reason, seems to assume that it is one of these hands that is usually 3betting. i think a worse ten (especially so) or 66-99 is more likely, simply because most players in this game aren't aggro enough to 3bet a flush draw. plus, even if they are 3betting a flush draw, the only time it's correct to wait until the turn to re-evaluate the relative strength of your hand is when they have 2 overs to go along with the flush draw, not just 1 over.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does BB fold to CO's flop 3bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]
So BB's flop bet was his last chip? I knew there was some sort of problem with the HH but assumed BB folded to the flop 3-bet.

The all-in flop bet tends to show two cards. In turn Hero's flop raise is automatic and shows two more cards.

Faced with that sequence it is natural for CO to 3-bet any made hand that wants to punish AK. He may also 3-bet the flush draw for a free card.

We don't want to checkraise the turn with an all-in player because there is scant incentive for CO to semibluff a draw. Some players will but without a read I wouldn't depend on it.

I now view this hand as being very similar to taking the flop heads up as the preflop leader, betting the flop, and getting raised with a flush draw on board. With TPTK I cap and bet any turn.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's his equity with AK /images/graemlins/heart.gif?

[/ QUOTE ]
46.8%. Was that his actual hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.