Halfway in w/ QQ...do i bail out?

[Big Limpin']

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t550)
Button (t555)
SB (t985)
BB (t1145)
UTG (t2460)
Hero (t2450)
MP2 (t1855)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t600</font>, Hero calls t600, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to t1800</font>, <font color="#666666">CO folds</font>,<font color="#CC3333">Button calls t555</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero folds.

Flop: (t3450) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t3450) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t3450) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t3450

-first, my original call. Well, i wont defend myself if you guys dont like the play. But i wanted to see a no-A, no-K flop before i got my money in. Thats not what the post is about anyways.

-MP goes upstairs. If you are him, and you see UTG min-raise, UTG+1 calls ....what kind of hands are YOU coming overtop with?

-Button (shortie) calls. He what?!?. When 3 peoples are already in a pot and cover you...is this a time you decide to take your stand? I was entirely convinced Button had an overpair to my queens.

-and then the original raiser mucks, so its back on me.

I'm in for t600. I have t1850 remaining. Calling certainly commits me, so lets say im ponying up t1850 to drag about over half the chips in play, if i get both pots.

You guys make the call? No real "reads" just my estimated hand ranges based on the situation.

[Big Limpin']

Results in white:
<font color="white"> ok, hope you thought about my hand before looking here. I was beaten, so the fold worked out. Mr. t1800 raise had AA, and the button's shortie call was KK. Also, original minraiser UTG later said he had TT.

So, being results based, yes, this was the right play. I thought they both had biggies, but, you know, you get that "feeling" alot and are shown like AJ/44.

Still, im not sure if i made correct fold, or if i was too far in, with too good a hand, and am better calling in the future. </font>

Discuss?

[lastchance]

I get rid of all this stupidity by pushing and stealing t1k!!!!! in chips without a fight, hopefully. If someone has KK or AA, then someone has KK or AA. No way I don't want all of my chips in the middle with QQ, no way I don't want one overcard coming along for the ride.

MP = 88+, AJ+ (wide)
Button = Desperation moves: 55+ A7+

You = 1200 on a pot of 3600. I really doubt QQ isn't as good as 4:1 against 2 other opponents, plus having only one player for side pot = +EV

= Push and call.

= Wow, what the hell were you thinking here?

PS Meh, maybe my range was too tight. But really, calling 1/4 of your stack with QUEENS to see a non-A non-K flop is dumb. Really, really dumb.

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]
I get rid of all this stupidity by pushing and stealing t1k!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]
agreed. but, my questoin is once im in that situation now what do i do...
[ QUOTE ]
MP = 88+, AJ+ (wide)
Button = Desperation moves: 55+ A7+

[/ QUOTE ]
Seriously? I put them on much higher range. MUCH higher. Not saying you arent correct, but if you are right, then i have MASSIVE fundamental problems in interpreting situationally based hand ranges. And i thought that was my strong suit.
(I should say also this is only $55, perhaps in your $215s it is far different)


[ QUOTE ]
= Wow, what the hell were you thinking here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ouch. I thought i described what i was thinking pretty well.

[Mr_J]

I can't read the white writing on my dell lcd...

Push preflop. Alot of the time a UTG minraise is just a hand that he doesn't want to risk it all preflop. I think he's most likely got a good Ax or 88-TT (I wrote this just before I saw that he mucked..). MP2 says alot. A push vs the 2 other bigstacks. Could do this with AQ+ and jj+. If he saw you guys as weak he might me doing this with AQ &amp; JJ but the coming in over the top of 2 bigstack just screams strength (that he doesn't mind racing). He's more likely to see the dreaded minraise and your call to show strength in which case he's push shows no fear = AA or KK. I'm more likely to see UTG and your actions as weak, but I don't think most players will. Button is desperate shortstack so he probally has a good ace or good PP but sometimes he wakes up with a monster. I can understand why you folded after it all came around.

But I push preflop (seems always avoid these situations). UTG doesn't feel strong, I expect him to fold and pick up 1k chips.

[Jay36489]

You're in lvl 6 and you're folding QQ? Thats crazy. It would take a hell of a read. And the "hoping to not see an A or K flop" is the wrong way to think about it.

[vinyard]

Given the way you played it (and I imagine everyone will tell you to push pre-flop) your decision to fold is pretty straight forward. If you aren't up against AA or KK from the two players who acted after you I would be astonished.

[Jay36489]

in white:
<font color="white"> You may have made the right play in this one situation but never folding here again is +EV </font>

[Mr_J]

"Seriously? I put them on much higher range."

This depends on the read. If I was MP2 then I'd push with a wider range than expected in what I feel is the right situation.

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]
-first, my original call. Well, i wont defend myself if you guys dont like the play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, in hindsight a push would have been better. But i did what i did, and am trying to play after that.

FWIW, i intended to check/fold on overflops, and push all others.

[Freudian]

I would call. Small stack is a non-factor for me. You just have to beat the big stack here.

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]

FWIW, i intended to check/fold on overflops, and push all others.

[/ QUOTE ]
You have QQ. There's t1600 in the pot.... You're check-folding? Awful...

Once you're in that spot, people are desperate, but you might be able to sniff out KK/AA here. Problem is, even if QQ is 50% against MP1, you should call.

[ChipLeader]

People keep saying folding QQ is crazy. ITS NOT!!!!!!!

Obviously, and as everyone has pointed out, pushing would have been correct, especially if youre tight enough to fold if an ace OR king flops. Youre going to outguess yourself by playing that way, push it preflop like everyone has said.

But lets say your cat jumped on the keyboard and pressed call, now youre stuck in the situation described. In this case, your fold was excellent. Not because you should always fold here, but because you had all the reads you did. I cant imagine your QQ is that strong against all this action, id imagine THE BEST you could hope for is a lower PP and an AK, which would be fine if it was one or the either, but against both youre not lookin so good, and this is BEST CASE. You read AA or KK, none of us played the tourny so we dunno if its a good read or not, but if you want to play good poker learn to rely on those reads. You read it, you were right, good fold.

[adanthar]

OK, your initial call without a big read is awful but that's not what we're focusing on here.

Button's call is AA-KK, AK almost for sure. *However*, there's 1350 chips left out there in the sidepot and he's just told you he has 2 of the 8 cards you're afraid of.

I am making this call every time and hoping to suck out on the button so I can win the SNG right here instead of breaking even. If not, well, the board would have looked different if you called so there's always rivering quads.

[psyduck]

You wouldn't be in this situation if you pushed PF with the 3rd nuts.

if you don't want to listen to that (wanted to get tricky or something, I can see a little merit to calling), then I play the same with that action behind you.

[psyduck]

Hmm didn't consider pot size, adanthar is right.

So I change my answer: I think you'll see overcards often enough to call the all-ins. Even then, you'll spike a queen 20% of the time for this to be okay.

[Sabrazack]

This is a clear call, even if button has the monster he probably has it doesnt really matter since the biggest pot will be between you and MP2, and as Adanthar said, he will have two of the cards that scare you. I just don't think your 10xbb stack can laydown a top3 hand here.

[curtains]

I dont see the point of asking one question, whereas the play that got you in the situation is so terrible that if you don't immediately rectify that type of play it's going to seriously hurt your results. Basically one decision is important, the other isn't nearly as important.

[Blarg]

How long till the blinds change?

Button was down to one BB after posting his SB next hand. No folding equity, in other words. There's a lot of money in the pot for what he'd put in. He doesn't need to beat QQ to call.

MP2 has 6 BB left, less with blind changes, probably. The pot is worth stealing. At this point a decent Ace or a medium pair is starting to look good. He can push with a hand that doesn't beat QQ.

By the time it gets to you the first time round, there's 950 in the pot and a min-raise from the guy tied for chip leader with you, which may well be a mediocre hand being bet just to steal the blinds. He doesn't necessarily beat QQ.

None of these guys necessarily beats you, yet you let some of them in the pot and fold out to another. Calling has been expensive here.

You seem to disagree, but I think QQ has more strength as a pushing hand than as a limping hand. Five cards is a long time in which an ace or king could fall ... or someone could improve in other ways while you're still stuck with your QQ. I don't like QQ played passively very much. A push with it can win outright or after all the cards have fallen. A limp with it can't win outright and risks your whole stack while there's still a lot of cards yet to fall, and people looking at a 1600 chip pot just after you, UTG, and the blinds alone. The next guy after you is already getting 1600 for a 600 chip limp, if he wins. Not too shabby. Guys calling in the back might get good odds to play hands like JTs and wind up killing you with it.

If you call, you might as well push. But if you had pushed in the first place, you'd have probably put yourself in a position to be winning more chips per the amount of risk taken. Letting the whole table in when you have QQ isn't a good idea.

Raise or fold. You've got the big stack, and you've pushed in on the other big stack. You're UTG and UTG+1. Who's usually going to want to come along and pick that situation as the time to play their last hand of the tournament? What you'll probably usually do by pushing is wind up isolating yourself against UTG with the better hand and either making a quick 1000 chips or doubling up to 4800 chips and giving yourself an almost invincible lead. That's so much better than limping.

[45suited]

Tricky spot. I like the fold though. MP2 at best for you, has AK, more likely KK or AA. I honestly think that button could have something as bad as a mid suited connector and just be saying, "F it, I wanna try to get lucky and quadruple up." MP2 scares me here though. I fold.

[MrX]

The good thing is you will never have to make these type of post-flop decisions with QQ in this situation again..right?

Push preflop and it is not even close. (I know that is not the point of the question, but it is at the heart of the issue).

[MrX]

[ QUOTE ]

I dont see the point of asking one question, whereas the play that got you in the situation is so terrible that if you don't immediately rectify that type of play it's going to seriously hurt your results. Basically one decision is important, the other isn't nearly as important.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont see the point of asking one question, whereas the play that got you in the situation is so terrible that if you don't immediately rectify that type of play it's going to seriously hurt your results. Basically one decision is important, the other isn't nearly as important.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's unanimous (even Big Limpin' agrees) that his pre-flop play was wrong. But that being said, just like Harrington said in HOH, once you find yourself in that spot, you have to re-evaluate the hand at the next opportunity.

Also, I think that the question has some value because it would be possible to construct a scenario where you call a 3XBB raise from EP with queens and then MP goes over the top. Maybe in a MTT with deep stacks where you and the initial raiser were the chip leaders and you viewed him as a tight player but wanted to see if any overs came to your queens on the flop before getting too committed. Then MP, button, and UTG each go all-in.

[schwza]

wow, that's an easy push on your first action.

and then i'd call when it came around.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think that the question has some value because it would be possible to construct a scenario where you call a 3XBB raise from EP with queens and then MP goes over the top. Maybe in a MTT with deep stacks where you and the initial raiser were the chip leaders and you viewed him as a tight player but wanted to see if any overs came to your queens on the flop before getting too committed. Then MP, button, and UTG each go all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh, so you mean a completely different hand? one where folding was incredibly obvious instead of incredibly bad? yeah, i can see a lot of important similarities there.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think that the question has some value because it would be possible to construct a scenario where you call a 3XBB raise from EP with queens and then MP goes over the top. Maybe in a MTT with deep stacks where you and the initial raiser were the chip leaders and you viewed him as a tight player but wanted to see if any overs came to your queens on the flop before getting too committed. Then MP, button, and UTG each go all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]



[ QUOTE ]
oh, so you mean a completely different hand? one where folding was incredibly obvious instead of incredibly bad? yeah, i can see a lot of important similarities there.

[/ QUOTE ]

No need for the hostility, I was just saying that after his initial mistake, Big Limpin' still had to make a decision when the action came back to him. As I said in my initial response, MP2 had to have at least AK, more likely AA or KK and Limpin's fold was good IMO. Now just relax and take some deep breaths.... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

But I do see that I was completely wrong about what the button had... Anyway, just relax, no need to flame for when I was just making a real response to a question is all.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think that the question has some value because it would be possible to construct a scenario where you call a 3XBB raise from EP with queens and then MP goes over the top. Maybe in a MTT with deep stacks where you and the initial raiser were the chip leaders and you viewed him as a tight player but wanted to see if any overs came to your queens on the flop before getting too committed. Then MP, button, and UTG each go all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]



[ QUOTE ]
oh, so you mean a completely different hand? one where folding was incredibly obvious instead of incredibly bad? yeah, i can see a lot of important similarities there.

[/ QUOTE ]

No need for the hostility, I was just saying that after his initial mistake, Big Limpin' still had to make a decision when the action came back to him. As I said in my initial response, MP2 had to have at least AK, more likely AA or KK and Limpin's fold was good IMO. Now just relax and take some deep breaths.... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

But I do see that I was completely wrong about what the button had... Anyway, just relax, no need to flame for when I was just making a real response to a question is all.

[/ QUOTE ]

didn't mean any offense....

i still think hero should call in the hand above. MP2 will/should push hands like AQ/TT here, and maybe less.