Top 5 Worst Golf Tips Of All Time.

[eric5148]

I'm constantly amazed by the steady stream of dribble spewed out by golf magazines, books and TV shows. The ratio of bad or just useless to good golf advice is about 5 to 1.

So I present to you now, my list of the top 5 worst golf tips I've ever heard. There are worse tips, but I don't bother to include them because they're not well known. The tips in this list are all very common, unfortunately. I also chose them because they're not just useless, they really make you a worse player.

Feel free to add to the list, or explain your disapproval for mine.


5. "If you're laying up, lay up to a distance where you can make a normal full swing."

What this tip is trying to say is that if, for example, you're playing a par 5 and you have 250 yards to the hole. You hit a 3 wood 220 yards, so you can't make it to the green, you should hit a shot that would leave a normal full swing distance with a wedge. So in this example, you might hit your 170 yard club in order to have a normal full swing lob wedge from 80 yards for the 3rd shot. As a player, it's difficult to see why this is wrong. It feels awkward to hit a club at less than normal speed. So naturally, one would assume that better shots will result from the full swing than a restricted swing. But statistics don't lie.

There is no one on Earth who can, over a large sample of shots, hit the same wedge closer to the hole from a full swing distance than from a less than full distance. All other things being equal, the closer you are to the hole, the closer the shot will end up on average. There are still many pros who refuse to believe this fact.

There is one rare exception to this: that is when the design and/or conditions of the green require the approach shot to have a tremendous amount of backspin to stop on the green. The only way to create enough spin would be to hit a wedge with a high clubhead speed. This pretty much only happens in the majors.


4. "If you're faced with a long putt that you'd be satisfied to get within tap in length, then imagine a 3 foot radius circle around the hole and just try to get the ball into that imaginary circle."

Basically what this tip is saying is that since a > 30 footer won't go in very often, you should completely disregard the possibility of it going in.

Any good golfer will tell you to visualize hitting a tee shot into the smallest possible target. If you aim for the exact center of the fairway, you're much more likely to hit the fairway than if you aim for the entire fairway, when hitting it anywhere in the fairway is an acceptable result. So why do the rules change for putting? Specific targets help you no matter what type of shot it is.

There's 3 reasons why small targets are always better than large targets. First, the clubface can only be pointed in one direction at a time. It's physically impossible to aim a driver face at an entire fairway, or a putter face at a 6 foot wide circle. The second reason also has to do with alignment. When you step up to a tee shot thinking about hitting the ball anywhere in the fairway, you won't pay as much attention to how your body is aligned. You could be aligned 1 yard from the edge of the rough on either side. But since that's still part of your target, it's ok. If your normal margin for error with a driver is 20 yards, you're shots will end up somewhere between 21 yards from the edge of the fairway, and 19 yards into the rough. The same goes for long putts. You could align the putterface and your body 3 feet away from the hole (assuming it's a straight putt) and your subconscious mind will be perfectly satisfied, because it's within your target. If your margin of error on that length of putt is 3 feet, then you'll hit it anywhere from 6 feet offline to in the hole. The third reason has to do with negative thinking and a simple lack of understanding of statistics. Just because a > 30 footer will not go in very often, doesn't mean you shouldn't try to make it. The people who teach the 3 foot circle tip are the same ones who would *WARNING: SLIGHT POKER CONTENT AHEAD* completely disregard a backdoor flush on the flop in Holdem. If it's not going to happen very often, then forget it.

I always find it amusing when TV golf announcers say something like: "Bob has a long birdie putt here. He's not trying to make it, he just wants to get it close." So what the hell is he supposed to do? Try to miss it? If you have two putters of equal skill, the one trying to make all his putts will always get the ball in the hole in fewer average strokes than the one trying to miss them.


3. "One way to read putts is to hang your putter vertically in front of your dominant eye while standing behind the ball, in line with the hole and your ball. If the shaft is not in line with the hole, then putt breaks to the side the hole is on." This is called "plum-bobbing".

If you actually think this works, you're a retard. I won't even bother explaining it. If you're interested in a thorough debunking of plum-bobbing, read Dave Pelz's Putting Bible.


2. "On the backswing, you should shift your weight to your back foot. Then on the downswing, your weight should shift to the front foot."

The problem with this tip is not the idea behind it, which I'll explain later. The problem is with the common use of the word shift. When a beginning golfer hears the term "weight shift," he/she assumes this means that you're supposed to slide or lean your body onto the back foot on the backswing, then slide or lean onto the front foot on the downswing. Horizontal sliding of the hips and leaning with the upper body leads to all kinds of problems.

A swing with a good shoulder turn, and a good resistance of the shoulder turn with the lower body, will almost automatically produce a good weight transfer from back foot to front foot. Telling someone to shift or transfer their weight better is useless, because a poor weight transfer is the result of other more important faults. When those other faults are fixed, the proper weight transfer will follow.

Furthermore, the idea of the weight transfer is one of the most overrated aspects of a good swing. Many excellent players, like Len mattiace and Chris DiMarco, hardly transfer their weight at all.


1. "Keep the putterhead low to the ground throughout the stroke."

This is by far the most bizarre and nonsensical golf tip I've ever heard. And sadly, I keep hearing it often. Although I keep hearing it, no one who says it has ever explained why it would work. Probably because it doesn't. Just think about it: to keep the putterhead as low as possible, you would need to lean or bend over on the backswing, then pull the club back up at impact to avoid scraping the ground, then bend over again on the follow through. This stroke would be impossible to repeat consistently.

Even if you could somehow keep the putter low without making the complicated stroke described above, how would it help you hit a better putt? Perhaps if you have a problem whiffing?

[jakethebake]

I didn'ty read this, but I'm pretty sure one should be getting your golf advice from 00t.

[Shajen]

good post.

Makes me wanna leave work and hit the course...but I can't.

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[tbach24]

How about posting some good advice...yanno so I'm not shooting in the 50's for 9...

[MoreWineII]

You took all mine. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[belloc]

Most golf advice is drivel (anecdote):

I went to the range yesterday and hit about 200 balls. Out of nowhere, a bunch of my short iron shots were hosel jobs, low and about 60 degrees to the right. The rest were solidly contacted, right at the target. I don't have a formal handicap (not enough time to play a full 18 often), but I usually shoot in the low 80s (high 30s/low 40s for nine).

I jumped on the net when I got home, and did some searching on how to fix a shank that pops up out of nowhere, and I found about 15 *different* solutions in my first half hour of searching. They can't all be right. They all diagnosed the problem differently, though the most common solutions had to do with swing plane issues and balance issues.

Question for eric: any idea how to diagnose/fix a shank that suddenly appears in your short iron swing? I've had bouts with the shanks before, but I've never found a good fix.

[namknils]

Wow, did you write all of that?

I didn't even make it through number one.

[eric5148]

Sounds like you were on the right track. Usually, it has to do with too step of a swing plane. You also might want to look at your address positions. Are your arms hanging down comfortably? Is the weight on the balls of your feet?

I have a problem of getting my weight too far back on my heels at address. The result is usually a heeled shot, and even a shank once in a while.

[ClaytonN]

The flaw with your argument on number five is that a lot of amateurs can put the ball closer to the hole from 100 yards with a pitching wedge than from 45 yards with a half-swung sand wedge.

[belloc]

[ QUOTE ]
The flaw with your argument on number five is that a lot of amateurs can put the ball closer to the hole from 100 yards with a pitching wedge than from 45 yards with a half-swung sand wedge.

[/ QUOTE ]

His argument is that this is a common misconception and just isn't true.

[eric5148]

[ QUOTE ]
The flaw with your argument on number five is that a lot of amateurs can put the ball closer to the hole from 100 yards with a pitching wedge than from 45 yards with a half-swung sand wedge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gather up a few amateurs and have them hit 50 balls from 100 yards and 50 balls from 45 yards. Measure the average distance from the hole. Then get back to me.

[Shajen]

Perhaps Roy can be of help:

Roy 'Tin Cup' McAvoy: Well, I tend to think of the golf swing as a poem.

Romeo Posar: Ooh, he's doing that poetry thing again.

Roy 'Tin Cup' McAvoy: The critical opening phrase of this poem will always be the grip. Which the hands unite to form a single unit by the simple overlap of the little finger. Lowly and slowly the clubhead is led back. Pulled into position not by the hands, but by the body which turns away from the target shifting weight to the right side without shifting balance. Tempo is everything; perfection unobtainable as the body coils down at the top of the swing. Theres a slight hesitation. A little nod to the gods.

Dr. Molly Griswold: A, a nod to the gods?

Roy 'Tin Cup' McAvoy: Yeah, to the gods. That he is fallible. That perfection is unobtainable. And now the weight begins shifting back to the left pulled by the powers inside the earth. It's alive, this swing! A living sculpture and down through contact, always down, striking the ball crisply, with character. A tuning fork goes off in your heart and your balls. Such a pure feeling is the well-struck golf shot. Now the follow through to finish. Always on line. The reverse C of the Golden Bear! The steel workers' power and brawn of Carl Sandburg's. Arnold Palmer!

Clint: Unnhh, he's doing the Arnold Palmer thing.

Roy 'Tin Cup' McAvoy: End the unfinished symphony of Roy McAvoy.

Hope this helps your yips, shanks, worm burners, etc...

[namknils]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The flaw with your argument on number five is that a lot of amateurs can put the ball closer to the hole from 100 yards with a pitching wedge than from 45 yards with a half-swung sand wedge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gather up a few amateurs and have them hit 50 balls from 100 yards and 50 balls from 45 yards. Measure the average distance from the hole. Then get back to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll volunteer for this experiment! It'll get me out of work right?

Knowing my own game, I can almost guarantee I would do better from the closer distance with a half swing than from the further distance.

[bosoxfan]

"Don't drink so much on the course that you can't drive home"

This advise sucks!!

[NotMitch]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn'ty read this, but I'm pretty sure one should be getting your golf advice from 00t.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are at least a few very good golfers in OOT IIRC from past threads. Not a bad place for advice.

[NoOuts]

[ QUOTE ]
How about posting some good advice...yanno so I'm not shooting in the 50's for 9...

[/ QUOTE ]

"Be the ball"

[Jersey Nick]

[ QUOTE ]
5. "If you're laying up, lay up to a distance where you can make a normal full swing."

[/ QUOTE ]

This is great advice for someone who sprays their 3 wood and has no short game, but can hit short irons consistently.

[ QUOTE ]
4. "If you're faced with a long putt that you'd be satisfied to get within tap in length, then imagine a 3 foot radius circle around the hole and just try to get the ball into that imaginary circle."

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a bad thought: If you’re a lousy putter, learn to lag.

[ QUOTE ]
3. "One way to read putts is to hang your putter vertically in front of your dominant eye while standing behind the ball, in line with the hole and your ball. If the shaft is not in line with the hole, then putt breaks to the side the hole is on." This is called "plum-bobbing".

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed – this is B.S.

[ QUOTE ]
2. "On the backswing, you should shift your weight to your back foot. Then on the downswing, your weight should shift to the front foot."

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed – this is like telling a white guy to move his feet when he dances – he’ll step on everyone else’s feet.

[ QUOTE ]
1. "Keep the putterhead low to the ground throughout the stroke."

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of duffers have a stroke that is too long & pendulous. Short and low isn’t bad advice.

[RacersEdge]

[ QUOTE ]
Most golf advice is drivel (anecdote):

I went to the range yesterday and hit about 200 balls. Out of nowhere, a bunch of my short iron shots were hosel jobs, low and about 60 degrees to the right. The rest were solidly contacted, right at the target. I don't have a formal handicap (not enough time to play a full 18 often), but I usually shoot in the low 80s (high 30s/low 40s for nine).

I jumped on the net when I got home, and did some searching on how to fix a shank that pops up out of nowhere, and I found about 15 *different* solutions in my first half hour of searching. They can't all be right. They all diagnosed the problem differently, though the most common solutions had to do with swing plane issues and balance issues.

Question for eric: any idea how to diagnose/fix a shank that suddenly appears in your short iron swing? I've had bouts with the shanks before, but I've never found a good fix.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do your divots look like? Which way are they pointing?

If you think you are inside-outing too much, take a swing and reverse your loop - make it outside-in - and do it just with a partial swing. It kind of helps you recalibrate your swing plane. The go back to your normal swing after a few shots. It works for me.

[belloc]

[ QUOTE ]
What do your divots look like? Which way are they pointing?

[/ QUOTE ]

They're definitely out to in (pointing to the left of the target pretty significantly).

[ QUOTE ]
If you think you are inside-outing too much, take a swing and reverse your loop - make it outside-in - and do it just with a partial swing. It kind of helps you recalibrate your swing plane. The go back to your normal swing after a few shots. It works for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I'll add that to my long list of things to try at the range today. One suggestion that a pro (online) seemed confident about was to line up two balls next to each other, one further away from you than the other. Address the outside ball (further from you). Take your normal backswing, but hit the inside ball.

Another guy suggested putting a 2x4 about one clubhead's distance (a few inches) outside your ball. Your brain will tell your swing not to hit the beam, and you'll be forced back inside. I ain't going near that one.

[PokerFink]

I'm wondering about all the people who said they coulden't read this because it was too long.

I dislike golf, I never play it, I watch it on TV 2 days a year (Sunday Masters and Sunday USOpen) and I still found this post interesting enough to read through the whole thing.

[M2d]

I like Romeo's advice better:

ROMEO
Put all your change in your right
pocket.

Tin Cup follows orders, not questioning the logic.

ROMEO
Very good. Now tie your left
shoelace in a double knot.

Again, Tin Cup dutifully follows orders.

ROMEO
Esta bueno. Now, turn your hat
around backwards and put a blue
tee behind your right ear...

TIN CUP
I'll look like a fool.

ROMEO
What you think you look like
hitting those squirrelly chili
peppers up Freddy Couples' ass,
eh? Do what I say or I quit.

TIN CUP
Okay, okay...

ROMEO
Perfect... now hit a seven iron
into that tree over there. You're
ready.

Tin Cup hits a perfect seven iron into the trees.

TIN CUP
How'd I do that?

ROMEO
You ain't thinking about shanking,
you ain't thinking about the
doctor lady, you ain't thinking
period. You just lookin' like a
fool and hittin' it pure -- your
natural state.

[RacersEdge]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What do your divots look like? Which way are they pointing?

[/ QUOTE ]

They're definitely out to in (pointing to the left of the target pretty significantly).

[ QUOTE ]
If you think you are inside-outing too much, take a swing and reverse your loop - make it outside-in - and do it just with a partial swing. It kind of helps you recalibrate your swing plane. The go back to your normal swing after a few shots. It works for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I'll add that to my long list of things to try at the range today. One suggestion that a pro (online) seemed confident about was to line up two balls next to each other, one further away from you than the other. Address the outside ball (further from you). Take your normal backswing, but hit the inside ball.

Another guy suggested putting a 2x4 about one clubhead's distance (a few inches) outside your ball. Your brain will tell your swing not to hit the beam, and you'll be forced back inside. I ain't going near that one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I wouldn't do the drill I said since you are coming over the top.

The 2 ball drill sounds pretty good - it will make you hit inside-out.

[M2d]

Since I'm the most inconsistant golfer ever, I feel qualified to answer your questions about shanks. after all, do you want advice from someone who never/rarely shanks or someone who has had to overcome this mountain many times?

when I start shanking, I just concentrate on contact. start with half swings and punches, making sure that I make good contact. when I feel that path, I lengthen out my swing until I make good contact with my full swing.

alternatively, just swing out of your butt. don't worry about swingpath, or divots, or any other techical stuff. just kill the ball. the correct swing is in your brain and you have to overcome the static to get to it sometimes.

[M2d]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm wondering about all the people who said they coulden't read this because it was too long.

I dislike golf, I never play it, I watch it on TV 2 days a year (Sunday Masters and Sunday USOpen) and I still found this post interesting enough to read through the whole thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

why in the hell did you open up this thread in the first place?

[IndieMatty]

Unless you have the "weathermans tip", I don't want to read this. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[eric5148]

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm wondering about all the people who said they coulden't read this because it was too long.

I dislike golf, I never play it, I watch it on TV 2 days a year (Sunday Masters and Sunday USOpen) and I still found this post interesting enough to read through the whole thing.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



why in the hell did you open up this thread in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]

You used THAT for your first Carpel/Tunnel post?

[belloc]

[ QUOTE ]
Since I'm the most inconsistant golfer ever, I feel qualified to answer your questions about shanks. after all, do you want advice from someone who never/rarely shanks or someone who has had to overcome this mountain many times?

[/ QUOTE ]

I want advice from someone who has overcome this mountain once. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
when I start shanking, I just concentrate on contact. start with half swings and punches, making sure that I make good contact. when I feel that path, I lengthen out my swing until I make good contact with my full swing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is what I did yesterday. After working up to a full, clean swing, I'd hit a half dozen great shots, then the shanks would creep back in.

[ QUOTE ]
alternatively, just swing out of your butt. don't worry about swingpath, or divots, or any other techical stuff. just kill the ball. the correct swing is in your brain and you have to overcome the static to get to it sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do have a swing (as do most golfers) that's technically horrible, and lacks distance (which is why it's not my main swing), that is sort of my go-to swing. I can always hit the ball cleanly with my go-to swing, and if nothing else, it gives me a little confidence that I can actually strike the ball squarely if I need to.

[CrazyEyez]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you have the "weathermans tip", I don't want to read this. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't believe I didn't think of this.
Well played sir.

[eric5148]

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
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Unless you have the "weathermans tip", I don't want to read this.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I can't believe I didn't think of this.
Well played sir.

[/ QUOTE ]

Never heard of it.

[M2d]

[ QUOTE ]
You used THAT for your first Carpel/Tunnel post?

[/ QUOTE ]
a true carpal tunnel transcends mere post counts and is mentally free to dish out wise ass remarks at will.
plus, I mistakenly thought that ct was 2600. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[wayabvpar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
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Unless you have the "weathermans tip", I don't want to read this.


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I can't believe I didn't think of this.
Well played sir.

[/ QUOTE ]

Never heard of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

CYE.

[eric5148]

I also don't know what CYE stands for.

[CrazyEyez]

[ QUOTE ]
I also don't know what CYE stands for.

[/ QUOTE ]

CYE (http://www.hbo.com/larrydavid/)

[belloc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I also don't know what CYE stands for.

[/ QUOTE ]

CYE (http://www.hbo.com/larrydavid/)

[/ QUOTE ]

Or: CYE (http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?String=exact&Acronym=cye&Find=Find)

[groo]

I agree and disagree. All of these tips are great for the right person at the time, however to put them in a magazine and pretend that they are good for everyone all the time is stupidity.

[ QUOTE ]
5. "If you're laying up, lay up to a distance where you can make a normal full swing."

[/ QUOTE ]

The best way I've heard it put is "know your free throw distance." For me it is 135 with a pitching wedge, 120 with a gap wedge, 105 with a sand wedge, and 80 with a lob wedge. To use your exmple, when I have 250 to the hole I hit 3-iron and if I don't hit the green I'll at least get up and down. on the other hand when I have 320, I know I have 5 choices as to how far to hit the ball. I can crack it with a fairway wood and get to within 30-50 yards. I can hit 4 iron to 90 yards, I can hit 5 iron to 110 yards, I can hit 6 iron to 120, or I can hit 7 iron to 135. that 50 yard shot is a bit touchie and the 90 yarder is a tweeener. The 135 is longer than the 120 and the gap wedge is my most reliable club. My choice, and the one I'll score most consistantly with, is the 6 iron to 120 and gap wedge close. Of course it does always depend on conditions, and this, of course does not work for many/most players.

[ QUOTE ]
4. "If you're faced with a long putt that you'd be satisfied to get within tap in length, then imagine a 3 foot radius circle around the hole and just try to get the ball into that imaginary circle."

[/ QUOTE ]

My game improved dramatically when I took this thought process out of my head. On the other hand, when it was introduced to me at 12 years old, my game improved dramtically when I started using it. Again, it depends on the person and where their game is. Mostly useless though.

[ QUOTE ]
3. "One way to read putts is to hang your putter vertically in front of your dominant eye while standing behind the ball, in line with the hole and your ball. If the shaft is not in line with the hole, then putt breaks to the side the hole is on." This is called "plum-bobbing".

If you actually think this works, you're a retard. I won't even bother explaining it. If you're interested in a thorough debunking of plum-bobbing, read Dave Pelz's Putting Bible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't care for Dave Pelz. Plum-bobbing does work, to an extent. It will not tell me how much a putt will break, but I find it very useful and accurate in determining or confirming which a way a put will break. It adds information that confirms an already established idea, and therefore creates/improves confidence. Confidence is at least as important as perfect technique or perfect reads. That is why I don't care for Dave Pelz, too much emphasis on perfect technique. Golf is at least as much (I believe more) art as science, and as such is very intuitive. Pelz's ideas, though techbically correct, remove the intuitive.


[ QUOTE ]
2. "On the backswing, you should shift your weight to your back foot. Then on the downswing, your weight should shift to the front foot."

[/ QUOTE ]

There needs to be weight shift in the golf swing, but an improperly executed weight shift creates a poor result. Which I believe is what you said anyhow. Can some players get away without a weight shift? Absolutely. There is no one proper way to swing a golf club. Again, this tip is a good tip, for the right person at the right time.

[ QUOTE ]
1. "Keep the putterhead low to the ground throughout the stroke."

[/ QUOTE ]

Another putting tip that helped my game greatly when I was 12 years old, but that I have mostly abandoned. When my stroke goes wrong I do still go back to practicing my stroke on a shaft. This drill seems to stabilize my stroke when it gets loose, but trying to take the low to the ground thing to the course has tended to be a disaster, again to technical and non-intuitive.

I agree that ALL tips in magazines should be ignored, but only because the players that need them rarely have the ability to know which ones they need.

[djoyce003]

You are wrong on #5 to a point. The average golfer has a better shot at getting a 100 yard wedge close to the hole than a 70 yard half wedge because they will invariably screw up their weight shift on the half shot. Now, if you can lay up to 20 yards, sure, but there is a point somewhere between 20 and 100 yards where you are better off just having a full shot in. I have a wedge that I can hit exactly 80 yards without shifting my weight at all during the swing and it goes exactly 80 yards and I guarantee you that I have a better shot of being inside 10 feet from the hole from 80 than I do from 60. This advice might not be relevant if you suck at golf however, I shoot in the 70's. I guess if you can't hit irons for [censored] then maybe you should try to get as close as you can.

[eric5148]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't care for Dave Pelz. Plum-bobbing does work, to an extent. It will not tell me how much a putt will break, but I find it very useful and accurate in determining or confirming which a way a put will break. It adds information that confirms an already established idea, and therefore creates/improves confidence. Confidence is at least as important as perfect technique or perfect reads. That is why I don't care for Dave Pelz, too much emphasis on perfect technique. Golf is at least as much (I believe more) art as science, and as such is very intuitive. Pelz's ideas, though techbically correct, remove the intuitive.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't follow Pelz's advice for swing mechanics, because it's too mechanical for me as well. I read his books for the research on the reality of how people actually play golf.

If plumb-bobbing increases your confidence over a putt, or makes you more comfortable simply because it's part of your routine, then you shouldn't stop doing it. Just as long as you realize that it's been scientifically disproven, and use normal green reading techniques to decide where to aim.

You should also read and understand Pelz's research about green reading, and know the difference between the aimline and the apex of the path of the ball.

[eric5148]

[ QUOTE ]
You are wrong on #5 to a point. The average golfer has a better shot at getting a 100 yard wedge close to the hole than a 70 yard half wedge because they will invariably screw up their weight shift on the half shot. Now, if you can lay up to 20 yards, sure, but there is a point somewhere between 20 and 100 yards where you are better off just having a full shot in. I have a wedge that I can hit exactly 80 yards without shifting my weight at all during the swing and it goes exactly 80 yards and I guarantee you that I have a better shot of being inside 10 feet from the hole from 80 than I do from 60. This advice might not be relevant if you suck at golf however, I shoot in the 70's. I guess if you can't hit irons for [censored] then maybe you should try to get as close as you can.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I said it's very difficult for a player to realize. But it's true.

Like I told the other poster, get a few players of any skill level, and have them hit 50 shots each from a full wedge distance and at least 10 yards closer. Then measure the average distances.

And, yes, I have done this before.

[JTrout]

[ QUOTE ]
Feel free to add to the list, or explain your disapproval for mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok.

[ QUOTE ]
There is no one on Earth who can, over a large sample of shots, hit the same wedge closer to the hole from a full swing distance than from a less than full distance.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is simply a false statement. There are many people who can do this.
As a general rule, you are absolutely right. The closer, the better. But many people are more accurate with a full SW than a 3/4 SW. Not most, but many.


[ QUOTE ]
All other things being equal,....

[/ QUOTE ]
there's the rub. All other things aren't equal. Often shooting a good score is about minimizing mistakes. Not hitting your 3 wood on your second shot (when you cannot reach) is one way to minimize errors.

[ QUOTE ]
There is one rare exception to this: that is when the design and/or conditions of the green require the approach shot to have a tremendous amount of backspin to stop on the green.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't consider this a rare exception.

[ QUOTE ]
4. "If you're faced with a long putt that you'd be satisfied to get within tap in length, then imagine a 3 foot radius circle around the hole and just try to get the ball into that imaginary circle."


[/ QUOTE ]

To each his own. Many players and sports psychologists agree with you on this. I don't.
For me, imagining a bigger target on lag putts makes for a more relaxed, natural stroke. My focus is on the proper pace of the putt, as apposed to the exact line.
I'm a firm believer in doing what works for you.
To each his own.

[ QUOTE ]
If you actually think this works, you're a retard.

[/ QUOTE ]
Unnecessary. I agree that plumb-bobbing is mostly a waste of time.
However,
1) I don't read a lot of plumb-bobbing articles these days.
2) Just because a golfer is holding his putter up, doesn't mean he is plumb-bobbing. The edge of the shaft can show a straight line to the hole, which may be useful in finding an intermediate target.


[ QUOTE ]
2. "On the backswing, you should shift your weight to your back foot. Then on the downswing, your weight should shift to the front foot."


[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. I don't know where to start on this.
If your whole problem was with the word "shift". then O.K., it's not the best word to use.
[ QUOTE ]
Horizontal sliding of the hips and leaning with the upper body leads to all kinds of problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

[ QUOTE ]
A swing with a good shoulder turn, and a good resistance of the shoulder turn with the lower body, will almost automatically produce a good weight transfer from back foot to front foot.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you like the term "weight transfer"? So do I.
And you think it is a characteristic of a good swing? Me too.

[ QUOTE ]
Telling someone to shift or transfer their weight better is useless...

[/ QUOTE ]

Nonsense. Not everyone misunderstands weight transfer.


[ QUOTE ]
because a poor weight transfer is the result of other more important faults

[/ QUOTE ]

One in particular. The Worst Golf Tip Ever Given....
"Keep your head down."

[ QUOTE ]
Many excellent players, like Len mattiace and Chris DiMarco, hardly transfer their weight at all.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
A swing with a good shoulder turn, and a good resistance of the shoulder turn with the lower body, will almost automatically produce a good weight transfer from back foot to front foot.

[/ QUOTE ]

So these excellent golfers are the ecception to the rule, right?


[ QUOTE ]
1. "Keep the putterhead low to the ground throughout the stroke."


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it sounds better than, "Don't chicken-wing it" /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[eric5148]

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Telling someone to shift or transfer their weight better is useless...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Nonsense. Not everyone misunderstands weight transfer.


[/ QUOTE ]

I was basing this on my own experience of trying to explain this concept to beginners. Maybe it was just the way I explained it.

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

because a poor weight transfer is the result of other more important faults


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



One in particular. The Worst Golf Tip Ever Given....
"Keep your head down."



[/ QUOTE ]

Oops, forgot about that one, that's #6.

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm wondering about all the people who said they coulden't read this because it was too long.

I dislike golf, I never play it, I watch it on TV 2 days a year (Sunday Masters and Sunday USOpen) and I still found this post interesting enough to read through the whole thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

why in the hell did you open up this thread in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a curious mind. I like to learn new things.

[MaxPower]

I think you are right for everything except number 5.

Assuming a golfer has good distance control with his wedges, you are right that it is better to be closer to the hole.

If he doesn't have good distance control, I think it is better to take full swing. On average you will end up further to the left or right of the hole with a full swing, but you might still end up closer because you can hit the ball the correct distance.

Also, for the average golfer the issue is not how close he gets to the hole. If taking a full swing makes it more likely that you will hit the green, you will score better.

Then again, I suck at golf, so what do I know.

[Sparks]

[ QUOTE ]
3. "One way to read putts is to hang your putter vertically in front of your dominant eye while standing behind the ball, in line with the hole and your ball. If the shaft is not in line with the hole, then putt breaks to the side the hole is on." This is called "plum-bobbing".

If you actually think this works, you're a retard.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read Pelz's book, but in the debunking, I presume he addresses the key to plumb-bobbing, which is standing perpendicular to the green. If you do stand perpendicular to the green (and perhaps that's the rub) then plumb-bobbing does in fact work, to the extent that it shows you which way a green is sloped, albeit not how much the putt will break -- it's not accurate enough for that.

In summary, I guess I'm a retard because I don't see how Pelz can debunk gravity.

Response please Eric.

Sparks

[edtost]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are wrong on #5 to a point. The average golfer has a better shot at getting a 100 yard wedge close to the hole than a 70 yard half wedge because they will invariably screw up their weight shift on the half shot. Now, if you can lay up to 20 yards, sure, but there is a point somewhere between 20 and 100 yards where you are better off just having a full shot in. I have a wedge that I can hit exactly 80 yards without shifting my weight at all during the swing and it goes exactly 80 yards and I guarantee you that I have a better shot of being inside 10 feet from the hole from 80 than I do from 60. This advice might not be relevant if you suck at golf however, I shoot in the 70's. I guess if you can't hit irons for [censored] then maybe you should try to get as close as you can.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I said it's very difficult for a player to realize. But it's true.

Like I told the other poster, get a few players of any skill level, and have them hit 50 shots each from a full wedge distance and at least 10 yards closer. Then measure the average distances.

And, yes, I have done this before.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're missing the main point of this - most golfers are much more likely to hit the fairway and have a good shot in with a 6 iron than with a 3 wood. imo, that's the main reason why laying up to a full shot is a good idea; the shot in to the green isn't that much harder, but the layup is much easier.

[edtost]

[ QUOTE ]

ROMEO
What you think you look like
hitting those squirrelly chili
peppers up Freddy Couples' ass,
eh? Do what I say or I quit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure about the rest of the quote, but the above should definitely be Lee Janzen's ass.

[groo]

[ QUOTE ]
You should also read and understand Pelz's research about green reading, and know the difference between the aimline and the apex of the path of the ball.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's very possible that my attitude costs me strokes, but when I begin thinking along techical lines such as those it interfers with the flow of my game and I know that costs me strokes.

Ken Venturi says that when you are attempting a makeable birdie chip, leave the pin in if you are ok with making par, but pull it if you want to make birdie.

Dave Pelz says that research shows the ball is more likely to fall if the pin is in.

Venturi shot more lower scores and won a few more tournaments. I might be wrong, but I think I'll side with him.

[CHiPS]

The other one that I think nails beginners is "keep your back elbow straight". They shouldn't be bending their back elbow like a baseball swing and it should be bent only a little, but hitting the ball with straight joints is a crazy notion that gets thrown out there a lot.

[eric5148]

[ QUOTE ]
Venturi shot more lower scores and won a few more tournaments. I might be wrong, but I think I'll side with him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you also read Tom McEvoy poker books instead of Sklansky for the same reason?

[eric5148]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't read Pelz's book, but in the debunking, I presume he addresses the key to plumb-bobbing, which is standing perpendicular to the green. If you do stand perpendicular to the green (and perhaps that's the rub) then plumb-bobbing does in fact work, to the extent that it shows you which way a green is sloped, albeit not how much the putt will break -- it's not accurate enough for that.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't quite understand what you mean. The conventional way to plumb-bob is to stand behind the ball in line with the hole. And that's what Pelz addresses in his book.

[dabluebery]

I think #1 is good advice if it can open the door for people to start thinking about course management, which is a good idea for anyone.

The easiest way for bad golfers to shave a bunch of strokes off their game is to convince them to hit shots that they have a high degree of success with, even if they *should* hit another club because of the distance, or whatever. (Keep the driver in the bag, hit two 4-irons, and I promise you won't get an 8 on this hole, even though it basically kills your chances of a 3 or a 4)

I don't get to play enough to have a good feel for my short game, so I'd follow this advice because I know it works for me. I'm often more comfortable hitting a 125 yard wedge shot than an 80 yard pitch, I *know* what a full wedge shot feels like, but it takes time and practice to feel my short game confidently. Knowing this, I'll take that into account when I make the previous shot.

Clearly, that's not advice for everyone, and I'm not going to dispute / debate the merits of 100 people hitting a shot 50 yards vs. 100 yards, but if it gets people thinking about course management, then it's a good thing. That IS advice for everyone.

People are too literal in taking / criticizing advice.

Rob

[groo]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you also read Tom McEvoy poker books instead of Sklansky for the same reason?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm new to poker and don't know who Tom McEvoy is. I wouldn't engage in a similar debate regarding poker, I don't have the knowledge or experience. (My apologies for poker content in OOT)

I've been playing golf for over 30 years, and though I've never played a major tour, I've played at every other competive level, and I've taught golf. I have knowledge and experience on this subject. One of the great things about the game is that there are many approaches. Mine isn't correct for everyone, but it is correct for me. I believe that the type of approach that Pelz uses, sets most golfers back. Most will not realize though, simply because it is just an extreme example of what has been the predominate theory in golf teaching for many decades, "focus on mechanics". I believe that how you think about the shot is much more important than how/what you think about your swing or the execution of your swing. Unfortunatley, there is much less money to be made teaching that.

[eric5148]

I made the McEvoy/Sklansky book reference because Tom McEvoy has won the WSOP and has written several books. Sklansky rarely plays large tournaments and is not well known by the casual poker viewer, and has also written several books about poker.

The interesting thing is, Sklansky's books contain much better advice. Playing a game well and teaching it well are entirely different. Personally, I would rather learn any game from a great teacher as opposed to a great player. It's the great players who usually have styles that only work for them, then they try to tell everyone else to play like them. While teachers tend to teach more fundamentally and theoretically correct ideas that work for the majority.

So getting back to golf, Pelz is the Sklansky of golf, and Venturi is the McEvoy of golf. I'm much more willing to listen to a Pelz than a Venturi.

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that the type of approach that Pelz uses, sets most golfers back. Most will not realize though, simply because it is just an extreme example of what has been the predominate theory in golf teaching for many decades, "focus on mechanics".

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said before, even if you don't follow his swing techniques, you would be foolish not to read his other research and ideas about the realities of how people play the game.

[decigam]

5.) Hitting a 220 yard 3 wood when you are 250 out is not a lay up. A lay up is hitting a club that will not go the max possible distance for some special reason. This can be hazards around the green or maybe just a choice to hit a higher percentage shot.

It totally depends on the person and the upcoming shot itno the green. Pin position, firmness of the green, wind conditions, hazards around the green (and layup area). Its all about finding the most +ev play. Even though the tree wood might sometimes be the correct play, it isn't always.

4.) Depends how good you are. (I'm a +2 and sometimes use this)

3.) This works, I use it, it helps me. It IS NOT inffalible, and is just one moretool that you can use to make your decision. It does not account for small undulations within your line or grain (obviously), or the magnitude of the break, but it certainly gives you a good GENERAL idea.

2.) I agree that the comments on weight tranfer are wrong, but for a differetn reason. Wieght transfer is a consequence of a good swing and not something that creates a good swing. Your weight goes right because that is where your arms (and part of your torso) are and then goes left for the same reasons.

There is no such thing as a good player who does not transfer his wieght properly.

1.) Keeping the putter close to the ground is not to be taken literaly. It is a great tip as long as you are smart enough to interpret it correclty. It just means that you should NOT lift the putter TOO FAR off the ground (this probalby means you are too handsy or to stiff).

This thread could have been great snce I rarely see good advice from golf magazines (basically because they are preached as if they could apply to all players), but you were only right on number 2. However, 2 is the one where golf magazines or poor golf instructors are the most wrong about.

[groo]

[ QUOTE ]
Like I said before, even if you don't follow his swing techniques, you would be foolish not to read his other research and ideas about the realities of how people play the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, focus on the theoretical and mechanical aspect of THE game, destroys MY game. By nature, I think too much, any additional thought is crippling. Golf tends to attract ambitious people that need challenge, and most of them fall into the same categorie that I mentioned. I've long believed that a lobotomy would do more to fix most golf games than 1000's of hours of instruction. You seem to like to read, Have you read "Golf is Not A Game of Perfect" by Dr. bob Rotella?

[groo]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a +2

[/ QUOTE ]

My game has sucked lately, I've dropped from +2 to +0.5. I've been too focused on mechanics, enjoying this debate though.

[JTrout]

[ QUOTE ]
I've long believed that a lobotomy would do more to fix most golf games than 1000's of hours of instruction.

[/ QUOTE ]

I made this argument in a thread a couple of years ago.
Sklansky strongly disagreed.
I think I said something like, "many golfers would be better if their IQ were 10 pts. lower."
He implied I didn't have 10 to spare! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Dominic]

where is your avatar from??? that's one big hit

[shemp]

Your experiment to validate #5 is flawed. You don't get 100 shots from the closer distance when you play, you are forced to create. If you have a specific yardage which you are quite comfortable with from repetition on the range, it may make sense to put it there and make the swing you've honed, rather than advance the ball as far as possible to, say, a half wedge from a tight lie, etc., which feels a bit different every time you look at.

I and anybody else with a dozen chances from close up will quickly find the range and put together a nice shot group, but that doesn't discount the course and game management idea that is being suggested.

I didn't finish your post, but that's what I think about that.

[groo]

[ QUOTE ]
I made this argument in a thread a couple of years ago.
Sklansky strongly disagreed.
I think I said something like, "many golfers would be better if their IQ were 10 pts. lower."
He implied I didn't have 10 to spare!

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

I would disagree with you also, 10 points isn't enough, in most cases, to make a difference.

When I make that arguement, I'm not stating that golfers would be better off with less intelligence. I'm stating that a vast majority of golfers (over 95%) not only think too much on the course, but they think about the wrong things. Almost all of that more than 95%, would lose some ability if they were no longer able to think, but they would gain more through their new ability to get out of their own stinking way.

On the other hand, many of the tour players I know aren't all that bright, so maybe it is an intelligence issue.

[mmbt0ne]

All I know is that last time I played I had at least 5 shots from 100 yards (I mean AT the 100 yard marker) and couldn't hit a good shot on any of them. It pissed me off to no end. I normally hit a SW ~135, and don't have a lob wedge. Needless to say, whether it was just a horrible day, or what, I don't know. But it frustrated the hell out of me.

[ QUOTE ]
I normally hit a SW ~135

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus Christ, what do you hit your 7-iron?

[eric5148]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you read "Golf is Not A Game of Perfect" by Dr. bob Rotella?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've read all of Rotella's books, and love them. His books have helped my game more than any others.

But just because I'm aware of all the mechanical aspects of the swing, green reading, shot dispersion, etc., doesn't mean I think about them while hitting a shot. And it's not distracting to me at all. On the course I use my technical knowledge to decide what type of shot to hit, not how to hit it.

[eric5148]

[ QUOTE ]
When I make that arguement, I'm not stating that golfers would be better off with less intelligence. I'm stating that a vast majority of golfers (over 95%) not only think too much on the course, but they think about the wrong things. Almost all of that more than 95%, would lose some ability if they were no longer able to think, but they would gain more through their new ability to get out of their own stinking way.

On the other hand, many of the tour players I know aren't all that bright, so maybe it is an intelligence issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a good golf mind has anything to do with intelligence. It has to do with the ability to shut off the analytical parts of your brain when hitting shots. I doubt the average intelligence of a pro golfer is different from any other random person. Pro golfers have the ability to trust their swing mechanics and their course management decisions enough so that they can focus only on the ball going where they want it to when hitting a shot.

[eric5148]

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I normally hit a SW ~135


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Jesus Christ, what do you hit your 7-iron?

[/ QUOTE ]

A great way to improve your ball striking is to have a contest with someone else to see who can hit a sand wedge the farthest. Think about it.

[groo]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think a good golf mind has anything to do with intelligence. It has to do with the ability to shut off the analytical parts of your brain when hitting shots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. The exact reason why a lobotomy would help most of us.....LOL

[belloc]

Update on my shank problem (OR: Re-hijacking this thread):

I went back to the range yesterday and figured out why I was shanking the ball. My hands were coming down from the top of my swing too far away from my body. I was sort of yanking the club down in an attempt to get fully extended at contact (I'm an ex-baseball player, and full extension was something that I always thought about at the plate to help get more power into my swing.)

So to fix it, I had to sort of imagine my hands coming through the ball much closer to my body, say, just in front of my belt buckle. It felt awkward at first, but it seems to have fixed the problem. No more shanks, and nice accurate short irons. I played 18 today on a very short local course (5500 yards), and was hitting drives and approaches very well. My score was rotten due to some donkputting, but that's a fix for another day.

Thank you, TwoPlusTwo!

[RacersEdge]

INteresting - you seem to need to focus on the same things I do in my swing - not coming over the top with your upper body. Sometimes I think of starting my downswing with my left hip to get my hands to fall inside. Whatever works. Are you hitting more draws now instead of fades?

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
I normally hit a SW ~135

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus Christ, what do you hit your 7-iron?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll usually hit a 7 for anything from 165 to maybe 178. That's not too crazy.

To be fair though, I'm tall and have long arms, so it's not really hard to generate club head speed.

[eric5148]

I shanked 3 shots in a row on the range yesterday, if that makes you feel any better.

It helps if I hit a few shots with a towel under my left arm. That forces me to keep my arms from getting away from my chest and coming down too steep.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I normally hit a SW ~135

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus Christ, what do you hit your 7-iron?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll usually hit a 7 for anything from 165 to maybe 178. That's not too crazy.

To be fair though, I'm tall and have long arms, so it's not really hard to generate club head speed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I asked because I am the longest of the iron hitters in the group I usually play with. I hit my 7-iron 170-175 (if length was the only key to being a good golfer ...). But I hit my sand wedge at most 110 (56 degrees), and that's with a down hill and some wind at my back. I've never seen anyone hit a SW 135 average. Mazel tov to you.

[mmbt0ne]

Maybe my sandwedge isn't very lofted. Some of my bunker play would attest to that being the case.

[belloc]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you hitting more draws now instead of fades?

[/ QUOTE ]

Draws and a few straight pulls, yes. Now that the ball is coming squarer off the clubface, and travelling more right-to-left, I'm having to adjust my alignment a tad to keep the short irons on target.

[belloc]

[ QUOTE ]
I shanked 3 shots in a row on the range yesterday, if that makes you feel any better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it does. A certain healthy sadism is essential to golf psychology.

[ QUOTE ]
It helps if I hit a few shots with a towel under my left arm. That forces me to keep my arms from getting away from my chest and coming down too steep.

[/ QUOTE ]

A coach gave me the towel tip a while back, and it's tough for me to get used to. I like to feel my backswing going straight back on line (or just a bit inside), but the towel makes me feel like I'm really dragging the club way around my body to the inside. If I just imagine the towel in place during the downswing, though, it keeps my hands &amp; arms in through impact.

[djoyce003]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are wrong on #5 to a point. The average golfer has a better shot at getting a 100 yard wedge close to the hole than a 70 yard half wedge because they will invariably screw up their weight shift on the half shot. Now, if you can lay up to 20 yards, sure, but there is a point somewhere between 20 and 100 yards where you are better off just having a full shot in. I have a wedge that I can hit exactly 80 yards without shifting my weight at all during the swing and it goes exactly 80 yards and I guarantee you that I have a better shot of being inside 10 feet from the hole from 80 than I do from 60. This advice might not be relevant if you suck at golf however, I shoot in the 70's. I guess if you can't hit irons for [censored] then maybe you should try to get as close as you can.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I said it's very difficult for a player to realize. But it's true.

Like I told the other poster, get a few players of any skill level, and have them hit 50 shots each from a full wedge distance and at least 10 yards closer. Then measure the average distances.

And, yes, I have done this before.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why all the pros lay up to a middle distance then right? come on. Every pro lays up to their full wedge/ full lob wedge/full sand wedge distance...whichever they prefer...they don't go "oh just get me around 60 yards"...they know exactly what distance they want to approach it from, i'd agree with you in regards to people that don't hit irons well...i know i'm closer with my 80 yard wedge i mentioned earlier, i've tried it, and the full shot is better, hence the reason I hit it, and not a 50 yard half shot.