Jackson back in charge of the Lakers [Archive]

namknils

06-14-2005, 02:47 PM

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I'm pretty surprised he'd take over a team that has no prayer of making it past the first round of the playoffs for the next five years, but okay. Jeannie must have quite the pussy.

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LOL

Anyway, I've heard all the criticisms about Phil only coaching teams that are already great, but you've got to admit that he's a great coach. Could any other coach have coached the Bulls to six titles? I don't think so. And even with the Lakers, sure that team was going to win a Championship, but Phil got them to win three. I don't think that another coach would have been able to do that.

NiceCatch

06-14-2005, 04:04 PM

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Could any other coach have coached the Bulls to six titles? I don't think so.

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This is a joke, right?

Aytumious

06-14-2005, 04:07 PM

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I'm pretty surprised he'd take over a team that has no prayer of making it past the first round of the playoffs for the next five years, but okay. Jeannie must have quite the pussy.

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I don't think the Lakers are as bad as you say. They could get lucky and have Felton fall to them in the draft and they should be able to add a servicable big man with the midlevel exemption.

Jackson will find a way to better utilize Odom, and Kobe should be a more efficient scorer under the more structured offense. I think Kobe will return to possible MVP player under Phil plus he will be one more year removed from his legal problems. Great move by the Lakers.

Bluffoon

06-14-2005, 04:20 PM

He's coach. I wouldn't exactly say he is in charge.

Bulldog

06-14-2005, 04:20 PM

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Could any other coach have coached the Bulls to six titles?

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Some would've gotten seven or eight.

Aytumious

06-14-2005, 04:40 PM

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Could any other coach have coached the Bulls to six titles?

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Some would've gotten seven or eight.

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Come on now. Jackson is clearly one of the top 3 coaches of all time in the NBA. He gets his stars to play well on both ends of the court and he gets the most out of his bench players. If you can't play your best under Phil Jackson, you can't play your best under anyone.

06-14-2005, 04:49 PM

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Jackson will find a way to better utilize Odom, and Kobe should be a more efficient scorer under the more structured offense. I think Kobe will return to possible MVP player under Phil plus he will be one more year removed from his legal problems. Great move by the Lakers.

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You're living in a dream world. Kobe was only great becaue Shaq made him great. For proof, look at Dwayne Wade. Had you ever heard of him before last year? Me neither.

Phil has always had great players, so I'm not convinced that he's gonna get much out of the yahoos currently on the Lakers squad. Furthermore, why would Kobe want to even talk to Jackson (much less be coached by him) after Phil slammed Kobe in his book?

istewart

06-14-2005, 04:51 PM

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You're living in a dream world. Kobe was only great becaue Shaq made him great. For proof, look at Dwayne Wade. Had you ever heard of him before last year? Me neither.

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You didn't watch the 2004 playoffs then. So GTFO.

06-14-2005, 04:58 PM

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You're living in a dream world. Kobe was only great becaue Shaq made him great. For proof, look at Dwayne Wade. Had you ever heard of him before last year? Me neither.

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You didn't watch the 2004 playoffs then. So GTFO.

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Wade was a middlin' talent at best before Shaq came along. Take Shaq away and the Heat don't make it past the second round -- just like the Lakers.

MoreWineII

06-14-2005, 05:00 PM

You really think this lineup can compete in the West?

Chucky Atkins G 5-11 160 08/14/1974 South Florida '96

Tony Bobbitt* G 6-4 190 10/22/1979 Cincinnati '04 R

Tierre Brown* G 6-2 189 06/03/1979 McNeese State '01

Kobe Bryant G 6-6 220 08/23/1978 Lower Merion (PA) 8

Caron Butler F 6-7 217 03/13/1980 Connecticut '04 2

Brian Cook F 6-9 234 12/04/1980 Illinois '03 1

Vlade Divac C 7-1 260 02/03/1968 Serbia-Montenegro

Devean George G-F 6-8 240 08/29/1977 Augsburg '99 5

Brian Grant F 6-9 254 03/05/1972 Xavier (Ohio) '94

Jumaine Jones F 6-8 218 02/10/1979 Georgia '01 5

Slava Medvedenko F 6-10 250 04/04/1979 Ukraine 4

Chris Mihm C-F 7-0 265 07/16/1979 Texas '00 4

Lamar Odom* F 6-10 225 11/06/1979 Rhode Island '01 5

Jackson might coach 10 more victories outta that team next year, but barring a miracle they're still not going anywhere.

namknils

06-14-2005, 05:28 PM

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Could any other coach have coached the Bulls to six titles?

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Some would've gotten seven or eight.

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Name them.

Nobody could have done a better job, or as good a job, with the Bulls than Phil did.

[censored]

06-14-2005, 05:39 PM

I don't know if I should be happy or sad. Right now I'm just confussed, why exactly did he leave in the first place again? Was this all done to keep Kobe?

davelin

06-14-2005, 05:45 PM

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Could any other coach have coached the Bulls to six titles?

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Some would've gotten seven or eight.

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How so given that the core players (specifically Jordan) broke up right after the 6th championship and there was no way that they were going to win in the 2 years where Jordan retired and came back mid-year.

I guess you could argue that a good coach could've coached the Bulls to a championship in the second year Detroit won their's. However both Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen were just in 3rd year of playing as pros. Possible but not entirely likely.

Daliman

06-14-2005, 05:46 PM

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Could any other coach have coached the Bulls to six titles?

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Some would've gotten seven or eight.

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Come on now. Jackson is clearly one of the top 3 coaches of all time in the NBA. He gets his stars to play well on both ends of the court and he gets the most out of his bench players. If you can't play your best under Phil Jackson, you can't play your best under anyone.

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No.

Aytumious

06-14-2005, 05:55 PM

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Jackson will find a way to better utilize Odom, and Kobe should be a more efficient scorer under the more structured offense. I think Kobe will return to possible MVP player under Phil plus he will be one more year removed from his legal problems. Great move by the Lakers.

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You're living in a dream world. Kobe was only great becaue Shaq made him great. For proof, look at Dwayne Wade. Had you ever heard of him before last year? Me neither.

Phil has always had great players, so I'm not convinced that he's gonna get much out of the yahoos currently on the Lakers squad. Furthermore, why would Kobe want to even talk to Jackson (much less be coached by him) after Phil slammed Kobe in his book?

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Actually I had heard of Dwayne Wade since i live in WI and I thought he was one of the most talented and explosive guards I had seen in college basketball in quite some time. He's certainly dominant more quickly than I thought he would be, but I'm not really surprised by his play.

Jackson is the best coach I have ever seen in getting the most out of his players. Obviously you don't agree, but he gets his players to play as a team, he gets them to play top flight defense, and he maximizes his role players. The guy is just a phenomenal coach and I'm sure he'll show that again over the next few years.

Daliman

06-14-2005, 05:56 PM

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Could any other coach have coached the Bulls to six titles?

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Some would've gotten seven or eight.

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Name them.

Nobody could have done a better job, or as good a job, with the Bulls than Phil did.

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Rudy Tomjanovich
Larry Brown
Doug Collins
Don Nelson
Any Van Gundy
Pat Riley
Scott Skiles
Hell, Tim Floyd

Pick any coach in the NBA right now, actually. Phil Jackson is a good coach, but not near the all time greats. Before he replaced Doug Collins, he was a CBA coach only, and he got the reins to a Eastern conference finals team with a growing core and the best player in the game. His success with the Bulls was for obvious reasns, and his success with the Lakers was because he had 6 rings and was therefore able to get respect from the stellar players that were already there, which was really all they needed to succeed. Once the team wasn't ready-made for the championship, he bolted. His main skill is satitating the troop, which IS of value, but a great coach? I say no. I had always said I'd love to see how PJ would do with an average group of guys. Now we may find out.

Aytumious

06-14-2005, 05:57 PM

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You really think this lineup can compete in the West?

Chucky Atkins G 5-11 160 08/14/1974 South Florida '96

Tony Bobbitt* G 6-4 190 10/22/1979 Cincinnati '04 R

Tierre Brown* G 6-2 189 06/03/1979 McNeese State '01

Kobe Bryant G 6-6 220 08/23/1978 Lower Merion (PA) 8

Caron Butler F 6-7 217 03/13/1980 Connecticut '04 2

Brian Cook F 6-9 234 12/04/1980 Illinois '03 1

Vlade Divac C 7-1 260 02/03/1968 Serbia-Montenegro

Devean George G-F 6-8 240 08/29/1977 Augsburg '99 5

Brian Grant F 6-9 254 03/05/1972 Xavier (Ohio) '94

Jumaine Jones F 6-8 218 02/10/1979 Georgia '01 5

Slava Medvedenko F 6-10 250 04/04/1979 Ukraine 4

Chris Mihm C-F 7-0 265 07/16/1979 Texas '00 4

Lamar Odom* F 6-10 225 11/06/1979 Rhode Island '01 5

Jackson might coach 10 more victories outta that team next year, but barring a miracle they're still not going anywhere.

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You said 5 years. I'm thinking they will improve drastically next year -- obviously not enough to contend -- and that by season two they will be in the playoffs. After that it really depends on how they draft, especially this year, and how good they do in signing people with the midlevel exemption.

namknils

06-14-2005, 06:03 PM

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Rudy Tomjanovich
Larry Brown
Doug Collins
Don Nelson
Any Van Gundy
Pat Riley
Scott Skiles
Hell, Tim Floyd

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This list is laughable. Larry Brown was a great coach that could never win a Championship until last year, and he had plenty of chances. Doug Collins couldn't get the Bulls to play, which is why Phil was brought in. Don Nelson! Phil would have easily won Championships with the group that Don had the last couple of years, but Don couldn't do it. The list gets worse as you go down the list. You list some good coaches, but none of them are as good as Phil Jackson.

Aytumious

06-14-2005, 06:04 PM

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Could any other coach have coached the Bulls to six titles?

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Some would've gotten seven or eight.

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Name them.

Nobody could have done a better job, or as good a job, with the Bulls than Phil did.

[/ QUOTE ]
Rudy Tomjanovich
Larry Brown
Doug Collins
Don Nelson
Any Van Gundy
Pat Riley
Scott Skiles
Hell, Tim Floyd

Pick any coach in the NBA right now, actually. Phil Jackson is a good coach, but not near the all time greats. Before he replaced Doug Collins, he was a CBA coach only, and he got the reins to a Eastern conference finals team with a growing core and the best player in the game. His success with the Bulls was for obvious reasns, and his success with the Lakers was because he had 6 rings and was therefore able to get respect from the stellar players that were already there, which was really all they needed to succeed. Once the team wasn't ready-made for the championship, he bolted. His main skill is satitating the troop, which IS of value, but a great coach? I say no. I had always said I'd love to see how PJ would do with an average group of guys. Now we may find out.

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This is ridiculous, Daliman. Phil got Jordan to play a complete game and his emphasis on team play helped the Bulls to be a much better team offensively. The same holds true with his Lakers teams.

His emphasis on excellent defensive play, team communication and cohesion, and his ability to juggle the egos of some of the most talented men to ever play the game certainly puts him in the top rung of coaches.

MoreWineII

06-14-2005, 06:07 PM

Maybe, I still think they're in for several years of pain. How many superstars do you think want to play with Kobe?

Aytumious

06-14-2005, 06:17 PM

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Maybe, I still think they're in for several years of pain. How many superstars do you think want to play with Kobe?

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That is a good point. I really think this draft is key to their rebuilding. They have the 10 pick and then two second round picks. This draft is absurdly deep so they could conceivably get a solid point guard at 10 and then some nice pieces with the other 2 picks.

Given the salaries already on the team, they won't be signing any superstars. But if Kobe reverts to the Kobe of 3 years ago and Odom plays like he did his last year in Miami, they already have a nice 1-2 combo. They really need a point guard and a defense first power forward so Kobe can play 2 and Odom can play 3 and they can move Butler to the pine.

Johnny Richter

06-14-2005, 06:20 PM

i'm still up for shipping kobe out and trying to get Lebron.

Daliman

06-14-2005, 07:59 PM

Doug Collins was replaced by Phil because DOug rode MJ,(and everyone) too much. I GUARANTEE they win championships with Doug. Phuill is a better ego juggler and massager than coach, and he wasn't even the architect of his main coaching strategy, the Triangle.

Good coach. Not great IMHO. I may have exaggerated a bit, but only a bit.

ThaSaltCracka

06-14-2005, 08:12 PM

it is a weird world where a coach with 8(or is it 9?) rings, is given less credit then coaches that have never won a championship.

Shajen

06-14-2005, 08:16 PM

ThaSaltCracka

06-14-2005, 08:19 PM

Doug Collins is one of the most worthless coaches ever. It baffles me that he continues to get chance after chance, when there are dozens of talented assistants and college coaches that literally run circles around that bitch.

Daliman

06-16-2005, 12:08 PM

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Doug Collins is one of the most worthless coaches ever. It baffles me that he continues to get chance after chance, when there are dozens of talented assistants and college coaches that literally run circles around that bitch.

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No, there's not.

Not sure why you think he sucks. He has had success everywhere he has gone. His main problem has always been riding his players too much. Scott Skiles's coaching style is much the same, and he wears out his welcome once the players get to star status, he is gone because they feel they should get special treatment, and they don't from him. If you consider this part of being a good coach, fair enough, but DC is more from the drill sargeant mentality than the Zen master mentality.

Clarkmeister

06-16-2005, 12:11 PM

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Doug Collins was replaced by Phil because DOug rode MJ,(and everyone) too much. I GUARANTEE they win championships with Doug. Phuill is a better ego juggler and massager than coach, and he wasn't even the architect of his main coaching strategy, the Triangle.

Good coach. Not great IMHO. I may have exaggerated a bit, but only a bit.

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"You sir, are an moron."

And I guarantee that the Bulls would've won a championship a year sooner with Phil at the helm instead of Doug.

Clarkmeister

06-16-2005, 12:12 PM

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certainly puts him in the top rung of coaches.

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He is the top rung of coaches.

Clarkmeister

06-16-2005, 12:17 PM

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Could any other coach have coached the Bulls to six titles?

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Some would've gotten seven or eight.

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Uh, no. Please tell me which years Phil "blew" a title in Chicago that someone else would've won.

Daliman

06-16-2005, 01:01 PM

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Doug Collins was replaced by Phil because DOug rode MJ,(and everyone) too much. I GUARANTEE they win championships with Doug. Phuill is a better ego juggler and massager than coach, and he wasn't even the architect of his main coaching strategy, the Triangle.

Good coach. Not great IMHO. I may have exaggerated a bit, but only a bit.

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"You sir, are an moron."

And I guarantee that the Bulls would've won a championship a year sooner with Phil at the helm instead of Doug.

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You guarantee this HOW? Why didn't he win it the first year back then? Why didn't he win it the first year MJ got back?

Tell you what I'll do; I'll make a bet with you that PJ will NEVER again win a title. You choose the amount. I amconvinced that without a ready-made team, PJ will be a slightly above average coach. In the list of responsibilty for his 9 titles, PJ is not even in the top 5, period. With PJ as coach of this past year's Lakers, they win no more games. He's a front-runner, plain and simple. My guess is he won't last 2 years with a struggling team, and will make up some crap about, "They're just not progressing as I'd like".

You, sir, know not whereof you speak. I'll not stoop to name-calling.

Daliman

06-16-2005, 01:04 PM

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Could any other coach have coached the Bulls to six titles?

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Some would've gotten seven or eight.

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Uh, no. Please tell me which years Phil "blew" a title in Chicago that someone else would've won.

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#1 MJ's first year back.
#2 If he wasn't such a sanctimonius jerk, he'd have stayed in Chicago, as would have MJ and Pippen, and likely won a couple more .

Daliman

06-16-2005, 01:05 PM

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it is a weird world where a coach with 8(or is it 9?) rings, is given less credit then coaches that have never won a championship.

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Scottie Pippen has 6 rings. Karl Malone has 0.

Who was a better player?

Bukem_

06-16-2005, 03:04 PM

I'm always baffled when when people say other coaches could have done the same as Phil, when a pretty decent number got the chance with similar lineups, and didn't even come close.

And Doug Collins winning a championship is a joke. He may have a good head for bball, but he can't motivate to that level. They need to get him off the air and give him an assistan coaching job or back office one where he would be a great help to just about any team.

Daliman

06-16-2005, 04:00 PM

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I'm always baffled when when people say other coaches could have done the same as Phil, when a pretty decent number got the chance with similar lineups, and didn't even come close.

And Doug Collins winning a championship is a joke. He may have a good head for bball, but he can't motivate to that level. They need to get him off the air and give him an assistan coaching job or back office one where he would be a great help to just about any team.

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Decent coaches with similar lineups?

Name one.

By similar, by the way, I mean having the widely regarded best player of all time and a hall-of-famer by his side, in the era when there were more than 16 teams in the league. closest is Utah, and Gee, why did THEY never win a title..?

Clarkmeister

06-17-2005, 03:22 AM

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If he wasn't such a sanctimonius jerk, he'd have stayed in Chicago, as would have MJ and Pippen, and likely won a couple more .

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This to me shows just how out of touch you are with the entire situation. The dismantling had nothing at all to do with him. Zilch. They all had to beg Krause to keep the team together even for the last run, hence the "Last Dance" them all that year. They knew that management and ownership wasn't going to keep the team together. Suggesting that Phil had something to do with it shows a total lack of touch with reality.

Clarkmeister

06-17-2005, 03:24 AM

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With PJ as coach of this past year's Lakers, they win no more games.

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So since they are likely to have a similar (nearly identical) team, one would think that if/when they make the playoffs you'll be back here to admit you were wrong?

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He's a front-runner, plain and simple.

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I guess you didn't notice the job he did with the bulls the two years MJ was gone?

Clarkmeister

06-17-2005, 03:30 AM

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I had always said I'd love to see how PJ would do with an average group of guys.

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We did, you weren't paying attention. As I noted in the "Phil Jackson" thread, the 93-94 team was predicted to go 42-40 by averaging the picks of the 4 tribune beat writers. They went 55-27 and were a bad call from almost certainly playing the Rockets for the NBA title.

Let me say that again real slowly. They lost Michael Jordan, the consensus best player in history, and the team only lost TWO fewer games than they did in the previous season. TWO.

So either Michael wasn't so good that "anyone" could win championships with him, or Phil had the greatest coaching season ever to only have a two game dropoff in MJ's absence.

Suggesting that Tim Floyd is a better coach than Phil is absurdity that shows your extreme bias and irrationality.

Clarkmeister

06-17-2005, 03:42 AM

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I'm always baffled when when people say other coaches could have done the same as Phil, when a pretty decent number got the chance with similar lineups, and didn't even come close.

And Doug Collins winning a championship is a joke. He may have a good head for bball, but he can't motivate to that level. They need to get him off the air and give him an assistan coaching job or back office one where he would be a great help to just about any team.

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Decent coaches with similar lineups?

Name one.

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Jerry Sloan
George Karl
Rudy T
Del Harris
Doug Collins
Rick Adelman
Stan Van Gundy
Pat Riley
Brian Hill

Clarkmeister

06-17-2005, 11:29 AM

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it is a weird world where a coach with 8(or is it 9?) rings, is given less credit then coaches that have never won a championship.

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Scottie Pippen has 6 rings. Karl Malone has 0.

Who was a better player?

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Steve Kerr has 4, so he's better. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Clarkmeister

06-18-2005, 03:10 PM

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I'm always baffled when when people say other coaches could have done the same as Phil, when a pretty decent number got the chance with similar lineups, and didn't even come close.

And Doug Collins winning a championship is a joke. He may have a good head for bball, but he can't motivate to that level. They need to get him off the air and give him an assistan coaching job or back office one where he would be a great help to just about any team.

[/ QUOTE ]

Decent coaches with similar lineups?

Name one.

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Jerry Sloan
George Karl
Rudy T
Del Harris
Doug Collins
Rick Adelman
Stan Van Gundy
Pat Riley
Brian Hill

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I forgot to add KC Jones