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View Full Version : Patriotism, opinions and morals.


IrishHand
01-13-2003, 01:50 PM
While I am completely oblivious to the mindless rantings of a select few (or one, as the case may be), it has come to my attention that some of you may have some misconceptions about either my view of this country, or at least of what it means to be a "patriot". As such, I shall offer a brief explanation...

Patriotism
Patriotism, to me, is a love and devotion to one's country. I made a decision to commit 10 years in the prime of my life (ages 26-36) to serve in our nation's military, and it ranks next to my decision to marry my wife as the best decision I've ever made. I didn't do it for money or because I had no other alternatives. I graduated near the top of my class from one of this nation's top law schools. I had a rewarding position working in a district attorney's office. However, I decided that it was more important to contribute myself to my country and my community than make a pile of money and lead a nice middle-class existence. I don't want praise for this, but insinuating that I'm lacking in "patriotism" kind of flies in the face of reality.

Opinions
As an educated and aware member of our society, it is certainly the case that I have some strong opinions on governments and their policies. My opinions are based far less on what the media spouts out than my own private readings and research. The end result, evidently, is that I've developed a number of opinions that conflict both with what the media tells you, and what the government tells you. Does this somehow compromise my position as an officer in the military? Of course not. The US officer corps wants (and is full of) intelligent, motivated extroverts. My most heated (and rewarding) arguments take place in the wardroom. However, we (and by we, I mean officers) understand that we're simply wheels in the massive US military machine.
The nature of the military - ours and any other - is that it operates under a chain of command. I might disagree entirely on a course of action, whether that be on a small scale (you will carry more AGMs than cruise missiles) or on a large one (we invade Iraq in one week), but that has no impact on the execution of my duties. I am a soldier - my job is to complete missions in the most effective manner possible. It is an insult to my honor to claim that, for example, because I disagreed with the reasons behind attacking Iraq that I would fly less effectively or be less vigorous about releasing ordinance on the proper target. At the Nuremberg Trials after WWII, those among the accused who were from the military generally repeated the same sentiment: "when you are an officer, and you are given orders, you can express your objections if you like but in the end you either click your heels and say 'yes sir' or take your pistol to your head." That didn't hold up well at Nuremberg for political reasons, but that's pretty much how I feel in the execution of my duties. When appropriate, I do not hesitate to offer my thoughts. Ultimately, I will do as ordered to the best of my ability. To do otherwise is both dishonorable and criminal.

Morals
Some people here toss about words like "disagree", "immoral", "wrong" as though they were synonymous. Of course, they aren't. 99% of what I post falls under the category of opinion - I agree or disagree with a policy, with another's post, etc. I rarely refer to morals or whether something is "right" or "wrong" because I don't think there's too much room for debate on those topics. Terrorism, defined narrowly and appropriately, is wrong. Hijacking planes and ramming them into buildings killing thousands and causing millions in damage in order to make a political point is wrong. There's no debate there, and that's why neither I, nor anyone else here that I've noticed, discusses that.
Are there occasions where morality might enter into my performance as an officer? I suppose. What would I do if I was given an order to do something "wrong" or "immoral"? Much like the generals at Nuremberg said - I would either say 'yes sir', or refuse and accept the consequences. Consequences, of course, would involve an investigation and potential punishment, ranging from capiltal punishment to extra watches. Of course, I am under an obligation to refuse to obey illegal orders. To be completely honest, there are very few things that I suspect I wouldn't do if ordered to do so. I have a disproportionate amount of faith in our military and my superior officers, and at least in times of conflict or war, I believe that unless it's a case where you would legitimately rather kill yourself than obey the order, you should do it and deal with the consequences later.

I am highly opinionated, and I am happy to discuss those opinions. I would just ask that the more reasonable among you try to understand there's a huge difference between someone discussing matters openly on a forum or in a wardroom, and someone acting in his/her military capacity and defending this country.

Regards,
Irish

nicky g
01-13-2003, 02:53 PM
To be honest, I disagree. If you think you (by which I mean the generalised "you") are going to have to drop bombs on people without serving a greater, useful purpose, I think that you shouldn't do it, and you should leave the organisation that wants you to do it. Obviously you can't do that in the middle of a conflict, and if i was in the military during a conflict I'd probably obey orders, but if you can see a conflict coming that you strongly believe is unneccessary, you should get out. If your country is in danger, that's one thing, but if it clearly isn;t and people are dying needlessly, as in Vietnam and in my opinion, the coming war in Iraq, you shouldn't serve. That would be my approach.

However, if you don't feel that and are confident you can function effectively during such a conflict, and wish to do so, that's your prerogative, and isn't anyone else's business.

Regarding patriotism, a country isn't a club or a political party. As long as you abide by your country's laws, you should have the right to think whatever the hell you like about it.

rounder
01-13-2003, 03:13 PM

IrishHand
01-13-2003, 05:02 PM
If your country is in danger, that's one thing, but if it clearly isn;t and people are dying needlessly, as in Vietnam and in my opinion, the coming war in Iraq, you shouldn't serve.
I disagree - those are precisely the times I'd want to serve. I would never abandon my brothers or the men under me in times of war no matter what I would think about the conflict if I were safe at home.

IrishHand
01-13-2003, 05:05 PM
You must have missed the first sentence of my original post. Go read it again.

nicky g
01-14-2003, 07:19 AM
Why not? Even if they're killing vast numbers of people for no good reason?

IrishHand
01-14-2003, 08:59 AM
"Killing vast numbers of people for no good reason" is how anyone who's opposed to war in general or a war in particular will define the conflict. Once the decision has been made by a government to use military force as a means of conflict resolution, a military must do all that it can to resolve the conflict in a favorable manner.

If we had 'won' Vietnam, we wouldn't look upon it so poorly. It's only when you have the combination of "bad political motivations" and "military failure" that a conflict or war is publicly ackowledged to be a mistake.

nicky g
01-14-2003, 09:54 AM
I don't think I would have thought of it more favourably, but I'm not really talking about my opinion or public opinion, I'm talking about a hypothetical war where YOUR personal opinion is that it is killing a lot of people for no useful purpose - why subsume that to your sense of duty to your fellow soldiers? I'm not saying you shouldn't, it's your choice, I'm just interested in why you think that's more important than your view of the conflict as unneccessary.