Understanding the $10+1 players

[suited_ace]

First of all, the example:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 (t875)
UTG+2 (t770)
MP1 (t795)
MP2 (t830)
MP3 (t670)
CO (t945)
Hero (t760)
SB (t785)
BB (t800)
UTG (t770)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls t15, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t90</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls t75, CO calls t75.

Flop: (t310) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP2 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t310</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to t740 (All-In)</font>, CO folds, Hero ...

In my experience the CO could have anything from an OESD to trips. No matter what I decide here, I'm almost never very happy about my decision.

In your experience, is this a call or a fold, assuming you don't have any reads?

Edit: Yeah, I know I should have raised more PF.

[mosdef]

i think this is any easy call.

part of the reason the 11s are so easy is that people will call preflop raises with Q9s and then put their whole stack in on a Q high flop. sure, you'll get beat by an actual good hand once in a while, but more often than not you're doubling up here. then, at worst, it's smooth sailing to the bubble.

[the_joker]

Seems like a call. You've invested over half your stack and you may still be ahead.

[flyby4553]

Its a call and I don't have to think twice about it. Given the way the hand went Villain probably has a queen, maybe even worse. This is why the $11s are so profitable. Furthermore even if he hit 2-pair you're getting about 7-2 on your call. You beat a hand like QJ about 1/4th of the time, so the only have a call is awful against here is trips. This isnt going to happen often up at the $11's to justify a fold.

[mosdef]

[ QUOTE ]
You beat a hand like Q9 about 1/4th of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

? I think his KK does better than that.

[Lady Dont Tekno]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You beat a hand like Q9 about 1/4th of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

? I think his KK does better than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he means QJ

//LDT

[suited_ace]

[ QUOTE ]
This isnt going to happen often up at the $11's to justify a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I wanted to know. The hand is just an example. I wanted to know if in the long run this is indeed an auto-call.

[Lady Dont Tekno]

Based on the preflop action there are only two hands to be worried about: QJ and 66.

Now think about the range of hands you can put these kids on in $11s. You're good here so much. Instacall.

//LDT

[flyby4553]

Yeah i meant QJ not Q9, my bad.

[JerseyTom]

This is a must-call; you're getting 3.58:1 and most of your stack is already invested.

Even if you're behind now to something like QcJc, you'll still draw out 28.5% of the time (meaning you'd need 2.51:1 to call, which you're more than getting here).

The times you're completely pwned by a set are less frequent than the times he's doing this with just TP.

Preflop I would have raised to something more like 150.

Hope it worked out...


Tom

[Scuba Chuck]

I think your play was very standard on all streets. FWIW, I think this is a bad beat post. I had a similar situation like this, where I raised with AA. Some schmo called me with K3 soooooted. Of course the flop was something like J33.

Just remember, it's hands like these that keep the fish coming back. "I knew I was right to call. I cracked aces!"

Scuba

[Slim Pickens]

I agree with your play on all streets, including the preflop raise amount. You want jerks with A8o calling you when you're holding kings so that when the flop comes 8-high, well, they come over the top. Nothing beats top pair, top kicker, right? (Of course you have to be willing to muck on an ace-high flop but that's just an occupational hazard.) That's the anatomy of how to win a big hand with an overpair at the 11's. The queen/jack flop is even better because now there's more semi-legit starting hands your opponents could be playing like the nuts that you now have beat: AQ, AJ, KQs.

Easy call.

Slim

[Blarg]

The preflop raise is standard for the 10's and perfectly fine.

There's $310 in the pot at the flop, and it's well worth winning now as opposed to just building. It might be different if you were heads up. What you'd like most of all is to either isolate or force two folds; a small bet encourages two people to stay. At least one of those people will often have an ace in this situation, leaving you vulnerable to both draws and an ace hitting, as well as someone making trips or a second pair. Two people having two chances to do it means you want to isolate or win right away. Betting this big or even bigger on the flop is fine.

A big all-in re-raise that doesn't even close the action probably means someone has AQ, KQ, a draw, or figures that you have AK and were making a continuation bet with no hand on a missed flop, so now they can steal the pot if they overbet big enough to chase out the guy yet to act. Their not trying to keep you and/or the other guy in suggests weakness in the form of a draw or AQ or KQ or a raw bluff is a real possibility.

Could you be looking at a monster? Could be, but the pot is quite big, and how many people would coldcall a raise to 90 with QJ or 66? Some, but not many. That leaves you with AA -- and if you don't play KK aggressively when there's no ace on board, you might as well just never play them again.

You have to take your chances. Half your stack is in the pot, and it's $1360 you can win for your last $360. That's a pretty damn great return; you'll rarely get better odds than that. If he has trips or AA or QJ, so be it. If he has a draw, great, because you're ahead. Go for it. A $1720 stack is well worth taking a moderate risk for, especially compared to the $360 stack you'll be left with if you don't.

By the way, players at the 10's do these raises with draws, even with the ignorant end of the straight, fairly often. Worse, they do it heads up a lot, without the pot odds. They'll do it with middle pair sometimes too, or just a mediocre overpair. You will frequently double your stack by bumping into these nutballs. Take advantage of it, put all your money in the middle, and just cross your fingers.

[sahala]

Looks like you're up against AQ, KQ, Qx, and villain thinks you're swinging with a missed AK.

[Karak567]

Easy call.

Pre-flop raise was fine IMO, at the 33s it is fine at least. Maybe more at the 11s.

[Rootabager]

Yeah you have to call. Players in teh 11's are so terrible you have to get pissed when you lose but you will win a very high percentage of the time. You also have half your stack in the middle already.

[tminus]

call
you have two limp-calls who most likely dont have QQ or JJ, there are no flush draws out
plus thats a fat pot and you're already invested

btw, i think the 6b preflop raise is plenty

[treeofwisdom7]

is your party name suited ace. cuz if it is i just beat you heads up.. GG

[zambonidrivr]

poooooooooooshhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[suited_ace]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I think this is a bad beat post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. I won the hand. It's more of a "can they really be so stupid?" post. I was wondering if I wasn't underestimating my opponents too much. Seems not.

[benza13]

I dont think you can underestimate the fish at the 11s, where first hand 2nd pair all-ins are common. Many, if not most, are there to gamble and have fun and have no clue what ROI and ITM mean, let alone ICM and the other concepts that are discussed here. This is why you can play the low level SNGs with few reads and applying a pretty general system like the guide found elsewhere in this forum.

[ChipLeader]

I like to crack the 100 mark preflop, gets some of those people who are 50/50 on calling out. I agree with everyone, must call, but i might bet less on the flop, at least then you have the OPTION of folding (though i probably still call, the 10s are easy)