Anyone in here been able to convincingly beat the 1/2 full ring game?? [Archive]

TomBrooks

06-14-2005, 12:19 PM

95% Party

.5/1 -- 13k hands -- 4.35 BB/100

1/2 -- 4k hands -- (-3.96)BB/100

I lost $200 on just one 1/2 table just last night. My biggest single table loss ever. I kept reloading because the table generally had the highest overall VPIP and most fishy players of any I was playing...and I took a bath. Some of it was certainly just bad cards and bad beats, but I can't blame it all on that. I was mostly 4 tabling while clearing BONUSJUN. I was -$250. on all 1/2 tables for the night.

I'm going to stop multitabling 1/2 and try it one table at a time or maybe two. It is definately not working out for me yet.

SevenFooter

06-14-2005, 12:23 PM

Are you playing a Party skin or another site?

TomBrooks

06-14-2005, 12:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this is all going by what I heard, but try the 1/2 9 max games (or 6 max if you like SH games) For some reason, that one less player makes everyone wanna go ape

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't consider there to be any significant difference between the 9max and full ring games. PT lumps them together and to my way of thinking they are virtually the same. Does anyone who actually plays them see a problem with that?

As far as 6max, I only have 500 hands there, but I think it is a completely different game with little comparison to the full ring game.

Losfer

06-14-2005, 12:27 PM

I play Crypto and PS and I'm beating 1/2 for 2.79BB/100 after 5,057 hands. I'm guessing that I don't have hands for these numbers to mean anything though.

BlackRain

06-14-2005, 12:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am in the exact same boat as you, except I am a little bit down in the 1/2 after crushing the .5/1

I'd like to see info on this as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been crushing the stars 1/2 full ring for about the last month when I switched over to limit from NL. Granted, this is not a long period of time. VPIP ~18, PFR ~6 but have recently moved this up to 8 or 9 on the advice of people here. Very aggressive postflop with premium hands.

I find that there is some very bad play at this level and always good games during peak hours.

mithong

06-14-2005, 12:30 PM

yeah party skin.. ive herad from people that some will build a 400 BB roll through .50/1 and then jump directly to the 2/4 games

but it doesnt make sense to me, if you can't beat the 1/2 game, how are you gonna beat the 2/4

mithong

06-14-2005, 12:31 PM

i'm talkig about strictly party skins here... 1/2 on party play is notoriously weak-tight

VBM

06-14-2005, 12:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I beat the full 1/2 game like it stole something.

[/ QUOTE ]

hahaha...man, this really made me laugh!

Jaran

06-14-2005, 12:37 PM

You are a poker god.

-Jaran

davelin

06-14-2005, 12:39 PM

http://img48.echo.cx/img48/139/126vf.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Bodhi

06-14-2005, 12:40 PM

Structurally 9max is about the same as a full ring game, but never believe anyone who tells you 9max tends to have looser players. They're just trying to mislead you... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

AmarilloJim1

06-14-2005, 12:56 PM

Did you print this graph in PT, or is Poker Grapher a different application?

Thanks

davelin

06-14-2005, 12:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Did you print this graph in PT, or is Poker Grapher a different application?

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

pokergrapher.com

bottomset

06-14-2005, 12:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I beat the full 1/2 game like it stole something.

Of course, I'm awesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

yep

seriously its not that tough of game, you prob aren't making any adjustments from the fish pool level

davelin

06-14-2005, 12:58 PM

Just noticed it was down. Not sure if I can just forward the app on.

mithong

06-14-2005, 12:58 PM

WOW i bowdown to u

would u mind posting your stats?

irishpint

06-14-2005, 01:02 PM

after beating .50/1 for 2.5/100 over 20k hands i moved up to 1/2 9max and full ring and through 1k hands am winning at 6.5/100, which i dont expect to keep. however ive found that its basically the same game, except the players try to be a bit sneakier and you just have to play better, and reads are important. example a: (converter messed up, so i did it myself against a stinkin' blind steal.)

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
6 fold, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, CO calls.

Flop: (5 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Turn: (3.5 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, CO calls.

River: (9.5 BB) 4:diamonds: (2 players)
Hero bets, CO folds.

Final Pot: 10.5 BB

sungod

06-14-2005, 01:04 PM

Why oh why didn't I start with 6-max sooner?

I'm not beating 1/2 6-max at the moment, I'm completely demolishing it. I don't believe it is sustainable (actually thought about making a post at 10k hands at 6-max giving the definite proof that 10k hands is a small sample size).

But, I've waited for the downswing after 1k hands, 2k, 4k, 6k, and it has never happened. And if people keep playing the way they are, it won't come either. Yes, I feel like I've had some bad cards now and then (at around 5k hands for instance), but generally it's more like people giving me money and not me taking it.

http://home.no.net/dmnation/Bilder/6max.JPG

Edit: As one replied thinking I had postflop aggression of 20, here it is. It probably is not what's regarded as optimal stats for 6-max (heck, I don't know what optimal stats for 6-max is, I just play).

http://home.no.net/dmnation/Bilder/6maxstats.JPG

mithong

06-14-2005, 01:05 PM

would anyone be willing to "coach" me for an hour... just watch me play some tables for a while and make sure my thinking is ok?

LowDown22

06-14-2005, 01:06 PM

Davelin,
If you wouldn't mind, could you post your position stats showing your BB/hand for each position. I'm trying to track down leaks in my game and I think it might be that I'm not truely 'positionally-aware'. I don't have Poker Tracker here at work or I'd post my stats.

irishpint

06-14-2005, 01:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why oh why didn't I start with 6-max sooner?

I'm not beating 1/2 6-max at the moment, I'm completely demolishing it. I don't believe it is sustainable (actually thought about making a post at 10k hands at 6-max giving the definite proof that 10k hands is a small sample size).

But, I've waited for the downswing after 1k hands, 2k, 4k, 6k, and it has never happened. And if people keep playing the way they are, it won't come either. Yes, I feel like I've had some bad cards now and then (at around 5k hands for instance), but generally it's more like people giving me money and not me taking it.

http://home.no.net/dmnation/Bilder/6max.JPG

[/ QUOTE ]

HOLY [censored]

mithong

06-14-2005, 01:06 PM

i assume this guy had a postflop AF of 20? ahah

bottomset

06-14-2005, 01:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
6 fold, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, CO calls.

Flop: (5 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Turn: (3.5 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, CO calls.

River: (9.5 BB) 4:diamonds: (2 players)
Hero bets, CO folds.

Final Pot: 10.5 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like this turn 3bet without very strong read

sungod

06-14-2005, 01:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i assume this guy had a postflop AF of 20? ahah

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, not even close. I'm not a maniac.

Maurader1

06-14-2005, 01:23 PM

would you fold the turn?

bottomset

06-14-2005, 01:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
would you fold the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

it depends, though I know I'm not 3betting there unless I really have a good lock on villians postflop play

BlackRain

06-14-2005, 01:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
would anyone be willing to "coach" me for an hour... just watch me play some tables for a while and make sure my thinking is ok?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you play on stars, pp, or UB and have an AIM or MSN I will have a look. I'm no expert though. But I have been very successful at limits up to 1/2 and brief forays into 2/4

bottomset

06-14-2005, 01:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
would anyone be willing to "coach" me for an hour... just watch me play some tables for a while and make sure my thinking is ok?

[/ QUOTE ]

how many tables are you playing? I have a feeling this is a major part of your struggles

I have a suggestion play 1table focus on the watching your opponents

evans075

06-14-2005, 01:34 PM

For some wierd reason 2/4 is a looser game than party's 1/2. I've got two buddies that built there bankroll and jumped to 2/4 and did real well, one has got his bankroll up enough and is 6 tabling 3/6. So thats what I'm planning on doing. I'm about 100 away from 300BB for 2/4 I'm probably gonna continue playing at .5/1 and wait until the next reload from party and clear it to be there. They told me to take it slow, ie. one table 2/4 and 3 table .5/1 and then do two 2/4, ect... So that is the approach I'm gonna try to take and compleatly skip 1/2. If I lose 50-100BB I'll move back down and start over!!!

mithong

06-14-2005, 01:35 PM

wanan coach me for a lil bit =)

bottomset

06-14-2005, 01:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wanan coach me for a lil bit =)

[/ QUOTE ]

for a little bit i guess

aim:bottomset222

karitek

06-14-2005, 01:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
For some wierd reason 2/4 is a looser game than party's 1/2. I've got two buddies that built there bankroll and jumped to 2/4 and did real well, one has got his bankroll up enough and is 6 tabling 3/6. So thats what I'm planning on doing. I'm about 100 away from 300BB for 2/4 I'm probably gonna continue playing at .5/1 and wait until the next reload from party and clear it to be there. They told me to take it slow, ie. one table 2/4 and 3 table .5/1 and then do two 2/4, ect... So that is the approach I'm gonna try to take and compleatly skip 1/2. If I lose 50-100BB I'll move back down and start over!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

2/4 might be loser than 1/2. (I haven't found a significant difference though.) But, 2/4 players play better post-flop. You will find yourself getting raised, check-raised a lot more than in .5/1 or 1/2 (which IMO, have very similar levels of post-flop players). When you make the jump to 2/4 - maybe try just playing 1 table of 2/4 (none of .5/1) to concentrate on reads, etc. Also, the 2/4 badbeat jackpot tables on Party are a great stepping stone. You have to pay more rake, but the games are much softer than the normal 2/4 ones.

evans075

06-14-2005, 01:47 PM

I'm re-reading the post flop section of SSH to make sure my game is up to par for sure. You right I do need to play only one table of 2/4. As for the BBJ 2/4 are these tables offered at EUROBET or EMPIRE b/c I'm about to get rakeback at one of these sites? Also, if I play the BBJ tables will I recieve rake back? Or is the rake just to supply the BBJackpot?

karitek

06-14-2005, 01:58 PM

BBJ tables aren't at Empire. I'm not sure about Eurobet. I just have fun playing them whenever I'm clearing a Party bonus - I also play them occassionally because I've gotten paranoid about Party trying to crack down on bonus whores, so I try to play there occassionally when I am not clearing bonuses.

An additional 50 cents of each hand is put into the BBJ, and I think party rakes a bit of that on top of the normal rake.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that making that big of a jump psychologically can be really hard. Let's say you have a losing session where you lose 25BB. In .5/1, that would be $25, but in 2/4, it's $100. It can be a lot easier to go on tilt because you aren't used to losing that much in a session. You really need to not be results-oriented (which is hard).

evans075

06-14-2005, 03:00 PM

Accually I've been on a 200BB swing at 1/2 about two months ago and had to completly stop playing and re-learn my play, so I'm really used to the swings now and I'm not really worried about that. Losing 100 now doesn't fase me as bad as it did when I first started b/c now I have none of my "own" money tied into it!!! Could you tell me what sections of SSH that could really help me out so I can re-read them.

JerseyTom

06-14-2005, 03:14 PM

I think I've been beating 1/2 full for ~2.5BB/100 over something like 25K hands by just playing stupid tight (something like 14.8/7.2, but I'm consciously trying to loosen up). I can post my PT stats when I get home.

Tom

JerseyTom

06-14-2005, 03:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]

As far as 6max, I only have 500 hands there, but I think it is a completely different game with little comparison to the full ring game.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 2 games are like night and frigging day.

1/2 full is predominantly weak-tight.

6-max is totally LAG-tastic. Get ready to start value betting rivers with bottom pair vs 2 opponents...

Tom

grjr

06-14-2005, 03:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I lost $200 on just one 1/2 table just last night. My biggest single table loss ever. I kept reloading because the table generally had the highest overall VPIP and most fishy players of any I was playing...and I took a bath.

[/ QUOTE ]

People chide me for jumping off tables early but this is the exact thing I'm trying to avoid. I don't care how juicy the table is. If you're not catching cards there or especially if you keep getting second best hands you're not going to win.

I stay at the tables I'm winning at and jump off the losing ones regardless of table stats. It seems to work well for me.

For those that say "the cards are random at ALL the tables" I say this. Everyone here agrees you get good runs and bad runs of cards over certain periods of time. No one seems to agree that you can get good runs and bad runs at certain TABLES. I fail to see the difference.

</HIJACK>

davelin

06-14-2005, 03:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone here agrees you get good runs and bad runs of cards over certain periods of time. No one seems to agree that you can get good runs and bad runs at certain TABLES. I fail to see the difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's because the table is an arbitrary cut-off.

Quercus

06-14-2005, 03:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I lost $200 on just one 1/2 table just last night. My biggest single table loss ever. I kept reloading because the table generally had the highest overall VPIP and most fishy players of any I was playing...and I took a bath.

[/ QUOTE ]

People chide me for jumping off tables early but this is the exact thing I'm trying to avoid. I don't care how juicy the table is. If you're not catching cards there or especially if you keep getting second best hands you're not going to win.

I stay at the tables I'm winning at and jump off the losing ones regardless of table stats. It seems to work well for me.

For those that say "the cards are random at ALL the tables" I say this. Everyone here agrees you get good runs and bad runs of cards over certain periods of time. No one seems to agree that you can get good runs and bad runs at certain TABLES. I fail to see the difference.

</HIJACK>

[/ QUOTE ]

Its because there is no causality between one deal and the next. "Running hot" and "running cold" are descriptions of the past, not the future.

karitek

06-14-2005, 03:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No one seems to agree that you can get good runs and bad runs at certain TABLES. I fail to see the difference.

</HIJACK>

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because the Tables aren't causing those runs. You trying to make random patterns mean something. The cards are all random - no matter where you are sitting. If you leave soft, juicy tables because you are getting bad cards there, you are hurting your overall win rate.

macdaddy991

06-14-2005, 03:37 PM

Ill bite. I moved up to 1/2 after beating .50/1 for 3.5bb/100 over 20k hands. As I began to play, the leaks that I had in .50/1 were magnified. There was no big pot to pay me off when I needed it. I realized that my game still needed work, so I jumped back down to .50/1 to work on certain concepts. This is not a bad thing. I know that when I go back to 1/2, I will be much better equipped to handle it. It can be beat. There are many players on this forum that have crushed it. It just takes being a better smarter player (which I am working on /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

DeathDonkey

06-14-2005, 03:57 PM

Hi grjr,

I've argued with you about this in the past so I won't bother again. I will say the people who have responded to you are offering good reasons why your logic is faulty. Nobody agrees with your philosophy on good/bad tables, can't you step back and see that? We aren't all wrong.

-DeathDonkey

grjr

06-14-2005, 04:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hi grjr,

I've argued with you about this in the past so I won't bother again. I will say the people who have responded to you are offering good reasons why your logic is faulty. Nobody agrees with your philosophy on good/bad tables, can't you step back and see that? We aren't all wrong.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

And every time I start to believe you all I go into a losing streak. It happened again last week when I lost 70BB during the Party reload period (not counting the $150 bonus). Instead of starting each table with $15 I started each with $25 and would stay around if the table was "juicy" hoping I would start to hit some hands and get the money back.

It just didn't work (for me). The losing tables were still losing tables except now they were WORSE losing tables. As long as there are a hundred tables to jump to I think I'm going to continue to do it.

I realize that most (all?) people here aren't going to buy into this and that's not why I post it. I see someone lose 100BB at one table and I post this to give them an alternative point of view and something to think about. It's something that seems to work well for me from personal experience.

You all are, of course, free to disagree every time. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Oh, and as for my logic being faulty I would say that when discussing hot/cold streaks I'm not using ANY logic. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody agrees with your philosophy on good/bad tables, can't you step back and see that? We aren't all wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just reread this part. Are you saying I should completely stop posting my opinion and personal experience on this matter?

imported_exelius

06-14-2005, 04:51 PM

as a newer person. Other than banroll, whe ndo you consider your crushing or beating the current limit to go up to the next. Is it just the way you feel or a set number.

Like I'm at 1.5/100 at .5/1 and almost have br for 1/2. At what time or hand count would you consider ready for next level?

Yes I've read the FAQ/micro thread. When you feel comfortable and such, but what have you guys felt comfortable with to move that has worked for you?

Thanks,
Ex

Deamon2

06-14-2005, 04:58 PM

my standards for moving up are:

-beating my current level for ~3/100
-have a br for it

if those two are true, I'll take as shot at it. This means I'll start mixing my current level and the level above me. If, over the course of a couple hands, I don't feel outplayed and have been running well, I'll make a permanent move. I've gone from .05/.1 to .5/1 like this, and will soon be going up to 1/2 the same way.

It's all about feeling comfortable at the new limit.

tiltaholic

06-14-2005, 04:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi grjr,

I've argued with you about this in the past so I won't bother again. I will say the people who have responded to you are offering good reasons why your logic is faulty. Nobody agrees with your philosophy on good/bad tables, can't you step back and see that? We aren't all wrong.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

And every time I start to believe you all I go into a losing streak. It happened again last week when I lost 70BB during the Party reload period (not counting the $150 bonus). Instead of starting each table with $15 I started each with $25 and would stay around if the table was "juicy" hoping I would start to hit some hands and get the money back.

It just didn't work (for me). The losing tables were still losing tables except now they were WORSE losing tables. As long as there are a hundred tables to jump to I think I'm going to continue to do it.

I realize that most (all?) people here aren't going to buy into this and that's not why I post it. I see someone lose 100BB at one table and I post this to give them an alternative point of view and something to think about. It's something that seems to work well for me from personal experience.

You all are, of course, free to disagree every time. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Oh, and as for my logic being faulty I would say that when discussing hot/cold streaks I'm not using ANY logic. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody agrees with your philosophy on good/bad tables, can't you step back and see that? We aren't all wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just reread this part. Are you saying I should completely stop posting my opinion and personal experience on this matter?

[/ QUOTE ]

hey man, look. we're all about differing opinions here. but you need to recognize that what you are doing by following your strategy is ameliorating the symptoms but not curing the disease. and you should present it as such to people who might think there must be causality there.

sometimes you catch bad cards and lose
sometimes you catch mediocre cards and lose
sometimes you catch good cards and lose.
you can be sitting at a very juicy "profitable" table and lose during each one.
but LOSING shouldn't be your criterion for leaving since losing has nothing to do with your cards over a sessions length.

davelin

06-14-2005, 05:03 PM

If what you say is true, then your bankroll/winnings should be always be steadily increasing since you can stem any loss by jumping off the table no?

droolie

06-14-2005, 05:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]

But, I've waited for the downswing after 1k hands, 2k, 4k, 6k, and it has never happened. And if people keep playing the way they are, it won't come either.

[/ QUOTE ]

You stupid [censored]. I hate you and fart in your general direction.

bottomset

06-14-2005, 05:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]

But, I've waited for the downswing after 1k hands, 2k, 4k, 6k, and it has never happened. And if people keep playing the way they are, it won't come either.

[/ QUOTE ]

6k? you can run well above average for 30k hands .. uh it will happen

grjr

06-14-2005, 05:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If what you say is true, then your bankroll/winnings should be always be steadily increasing since you can stem any loss by jumping off the table no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not ANY loss but substantial losses at one table. So more or less.......yes.

http://home.satx.rr.com/alphadeals/graph052505.jpg

bottomset

06-14-2005, 05:18 PM

congrats on being one of the lucky few that gets a 35k hot streak to start your poker career .. you truely were blessed

the downswing will happen

jrbick

06-14-2005, 05:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As I began to play, the leaks that I had in .50/1 were magnified There was no big pot to pay me off when I needed it. I realized that my game still needed work, so I jumped back down to .50/1 to work on certain concepts.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my experience as well. I think I finally have enough patchwork done that I'm beating 1/2. Can't tell if I'm crushing it yet cuz sample size is just too small. Examine your postflop play. Take a look at your PT database and see which hands are bleeding the most. For me, it has been overcards that miss flops. Make sure you're counting outs correctly, etc. You can have a low VPIP and still be messing up in BIG ways.

Bottom line is that the above poster put it best: your leaks are just magnified x 2. Re-examine hands and post them (but be involved with the ensuing comments -- ask questions).

JR

davelin

06-14-2005, 05:33 PM

This is at the Party 1/2 game? 6+ BB/100 is pretty healthy there...

kiemo

06-14-2005, 05:42 PM

I went 17k hands at .5/1 at over 4bb/100

Tried moving to 1/2 by playing 1 table mixed in with two .5/1.

Went about 3k hands - never crossed into the + level. Couldnt adjust to the increased level of aggression.

Since I moved back down though I am winning below 1bb/100 at .5/1 (10k hands - including down 75BB in june) so my confidence to take another stab at 1/2 is pretty much non-existant.

Aaron W.

06-14-2005, 05:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If what you say is true, then your bankroll/winnings should be always be steadily increasing since you can stem any loss by jumping off the table no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not ANY loss but substantial losses at one table. So more or less.......yes.

http://home.satx.rr.com/alphadeals/graph052505.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Haven't you guys given up on this debate yet?

1) grjr is right to the extent that he *IS* "stemming" losing streaks by not staying at tables where he is at a disadvantage for an extended period, unless he's getting lucky and is riding an upswing. At the same time, he is also leaving tables where he has an advantage and just hits a bad run of cards. Most players are unable to recognize when they are at a disadvantage at a table (based on relative position to certain types of players, the overall skill level of the rest of the table, and lots of other factors), and these usually account for some of the downswings exhibited by other players.

2) The "big downswing" that happens seems to have already happened. There is apparently a -150 BB downswing over a span of about 1000 hands at 20K hands. As the number of hands gets large, a consistent player will have a graph that looks more and more linear. It is becoming less likely as time progresses that you will "see" the downswing on that graph in the same way you "see" it for players who have only 7000 hands. Furthermore, there's an early flat period from about 4000 to 8000 hands.

3) The wording "significant losses at ONE table" is very peculiar. There is no claim about not having several tables in a row with losses is not implied at all by that statement.

sungod

06-14-2005, 05:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You stupid [censored]. I hate you and fart in your general direction.

[/ QUOTE ]

At least you could have left Monty Python out of it. Anyways, I doubt it'll stay this way, even though I'm bankrolled for 5/10 now (much thanks to bonuses) I want kind of want to stay at 1/2 to see the end of the "streak". I doubt I'll have this success at 2/4 anyways.

grjr

06-14-2005, 05:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]

hey man, look. we're all about differing opinions here. but you need to recognize that what you are doing by following your strategy is ameliorating the symptoms but not curing the disease. and you should present it as such to people who might think there must be causality there.

sometimes you catch bad cards and lose
sometimes you catch mediocre cards and lose
sometimes you catch good cards and lose.
you can be sitting at a very juicy "profitable" table and lose during each one.
but LOSING shouldn't be your criterion for leaving since losing has nothing to do with your cards over a sessions length.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been around gambling of some sort for over 35 years so I have more experience with that than the math part of holdem but I think concentrating SOLELY on the math part of poker and ignoring the gambling part is a mistake--although, admittedly not a huge mistake in the long run.

Gambling is a long series of hot and cold runs. If you can somehow accentuate the hot runs and downplay the cold runs in poker then you can boost your winrate higher than what it would have been otherwise. You guys don't believe that now partly because most of you aren't even 20 years old yet. But I believe it and that's all that matters to me. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Ok, that's all the heresy you're going to get out of me today. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

droolie

06-14-2005, 05:56 PM

Seriously I'm quite happy to see someone with a nice looking graph. You are one of the only players who I've seen be so consistent. My graph looks like pinocchio's polygraph.

(Prepare yourself for BIG swings. They are unaviodable and absolutely mind numbingly brutal. You've already experienced on swing so far....)

davelin

06-14-2005, 05:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Gambling is a long series of hot and cold runs. If you can somehow accentuate the hot runs and downplay the cold runs in poker then you can boost your winrate higher than what it would have been otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does just changing tables accomplish this though? What we're saying is that the cards have no memory of the table.

grjr

06-14-2005, 06:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is at the Party 1/2 game? 6+ BB/100 is pretty healthy there...

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish! No, it's all Party .50/1. I stay at .50/1 at Party because I'm always clearing bonuses and usually it's an almost guaranteed $100 on top of the bonus. I'm just not sure I could make much more money at 1/2 and the added stress wouldn't be worth it at this point.

davelin

06-14-2005, 06:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is at the Party 1/2 game? 6+ BB/100 is pretty healthy there...

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish! No, it's all Party .50/1. I stay at .50/1 at Party because I'm always clearing bonuses and usually it's an almost guaranteed $100 on top of the bonus. I'm just not sure I could make much more money at 1/2 and the added stress wouldn't be worth it at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see. In that case I'm going to say that switching tables because you're "cold" doesn't really change much since most of the typical tables are probably pretty interchangeable.

droolie

06-14-2005, 06:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Gambling is a long series of hot and cold runs. If you can somehow accentuate the hot runs and downplay the cold runs in poker then you can boost your winrate higher than what it would have been otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does just changing tables accomplish this though? What we're saying is that the cards have no memory of the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. He consistantly changes tables that aren't working for him and he gets himself out of poor table dynamics. Any random table has a better chance of providing better dynamics than one he's losing on. What he need to learn is the difference between poor table dynamics and bad cards but he never will because he's a gambler not a gamer. Sorry grjr but it's true...

(This is a tired subject....)

grjr

06-14-2005, 06:09 PM

davelin

06-14-2005, 06:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Gambling is a long series of hot and cold runs. If you can somehow accentuate the hot runs and downplay the cold runs in poker then you can boost your winrate higher than what it would have been otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does just changing tables accomplish this though? What we're saying is that the cards have no memory of the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems to help me for whatever reason. It's obviously not for everyone but losing 100BB at one table shouldn't be for anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

sungod

06-14-2005, 06:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My graph looks like pinocchio's polygraph.

[/ QUOTE ]

Much like my 1/2 full ring graph. Which is why I started at 6-max in the first place. I was running cold and needed something different. Needless to say, I'm not going back to full-ring. Probably I'll go the 6-max ranks at Crypto (where most of my playing has been) instead of the usual full ring at party until 5/10 6-max.

[ QUOTE ]
(Prepare yourself for BIG swings. They are unaviodable and absolutely mind numbingly brutal. You've already experienced on swing so far....)

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif It's what I've been trying to do. At least I have a br to cope with a serious downswing now. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

grjr

06-14-2005, 06:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]

1) grjr is right to the extent that he *IS* "stemming" losing streaks by not staying at tables where he is at a disadvantage for an extended period, unless he's getting lucky and is riding an upswing. At the same time, he is also leaving tables where he has an advantage and just hits a bad run of cards. Most players are unable to recognize when they are at a disadvantage at a table (based on relative position to certain types of players, the overall skill level of the rest of the table, and lots of other factors), and these usually account for some of the downswings exhibited by other players.

2) The "big downswing" that happens seems to have already happened. There is apparently a -150 BB downswing over a span of about 1000 hands at 20K hands. As the number of hands gets large, a consistent player will have a graph that looks more and more linear. It is becoming less likely as time progresses that you will "see" the downswing on that graph in the same way you "see" it for players who have only 7000 hands. Furthermore, there's an early flat period from about 4000 to 8000 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

The big downswing at the 20k mark was mostly my own doing. As you can see there was a 170BB upshot right before that. That was a late Friday night where everything was going perfect. I think my VP$IP for those 400 hands was something like 34% and my BB/100 was 42. The cards were tremendous. My big mistake probably was going to bed and not riding it out more.

The big downswing occurred the very next night and started immediately as I started play. Everything went wrong and I was playing too many hands partly because of the night before. Usually if I lose 40BB in a session I quit, go watch the big screen, and start over the next day. This night though every time I quit my daughters were watching something on the TV so I went back to the poker. Did this 3 times until I finally quit for the night which is the low point there on the graph.

The next day when I started again the graph immediately went back up some. So I blame my daughters for $100 of that loss. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]

3) The wording "significant losses at ONE table" is very peculiar. There is no claim about not having several tables in a row with losses is not implied at all by that statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true. I have had a few times where no matter how many tables I tried I couldn't get anything going. Excepting the story above when I get down 40BB in a session I quit and start back the next day. 80% of the time the next day will show an immediate upturn. I don't know why but that's the way it's worked out.

Oh, and the early flat period from 4000 to 8000 hands was when I first started reading on here that you should stay at juicy tables. So I tried rebuying at several tables and ended up with a bunch of 15-30BB losses. So much for that idea. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

SCfuji

06-14-2005, 06:43 PM

you look like you could lose some weight. i have a very effective weight-loss program if you are interested. please dial, 1-800-ih8-ubch. :shocked /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

skoal2k4

06-14-2005, 07:09 PM

changing tables is good only in that mentally, you'll be able to "move on" and not go on tilt as much

dozer

06-14-2005, 07:20 PM

I really don't think it matters if you are only playing at Party or not, 1/2 is 1/2. There are sites that are just as soft as Party.

http://img298.echo.cx/img298/2663/ack6hl.jpg

5,600 of the hands are from Party, the rest are a mix of different sites I was bonus whoring.

If you havn't played many hands at 1/2 , you could just be running bad. My last 4k hands have been pretty much break even. One big downswing followed by a big upswing. My sample size is small too so the graph looks like crap. I think after playing more hands the swings will not look as crazy.

grjr

06-14-2005, 07:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]

He's doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. He consistantly changes tables that aren't working for him and he gets himself out of poor table dynamics. Any random table has a better chance of providing better dynamics than one he's losing on. What he need to learn is the difference between poor table dynamics and bad cards but he never will because he's a gambler not a gamer. Sorry grjr but it's true...

(This is a tired subject....)

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a lot of table dynamics involved I'm sure but it's not the only factor. Sure, I put a lot of emphasis on the gambling side of poker but you have to admit that there is a lot of short term gambling luck involved in poker. It doesn't necessarily mean I don't know how to play some also.

Here's something else you won't believe. I've been a consistant winner in online blackjack by varying bet size during hot and cold streaks. No table dynamics there. AM I just lucky? Maybe, but maybe not. Hey, I SAID you wouldn't believe it. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

grjr

06-14-2005, 07:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
changing tables is good only in that mentally, you'll be able to "move on" and not go on tilt as much

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this is a big help for me along with the other things.

jrbick

06-14-2005, 09:16 PM

Holy hijack.

topspin

06-14-2005, 09:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Holy hijack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing like beating a dead horse to push up the reply count, eh? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

TomBrooks

06-15-2005, 03:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi grjr, ...your logic is faulty. Nobody agrees with your philosophy on good/bad tables...We aren't all wrong.-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]And every time I start to believe you all I go into a losing streak.

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand the logic and I have tried to apply it, staying at tables that appear by VPIP etc. to be amongst the better tables even though I'm losing on them. Almost invariably I keep losing and getting deeper and deeper into the red on these tables. Partly I tend to resist leaving any table when I'm down on it. I feel capable of winning on almost any .5/1 table and I like to get close to even at least. But especially when it should be an easy table to get back up on. It is logical that these tables would be good to stay at.

However, I've also found that on tables where I start off taking bad beats, they usually continue. And on tables that I start off getting lucky and putting bad beats on others, that tends to continue also. That is not logical, but I feel pretty strongly it is has been a pretty consistant trend for me so far and I have about 50k hands of experience.

It may also be that I unconsciously start playing poorly on losing tables. I went back and looked at some of the hands from my last night's -100 BB table, and I played some hands very poorly. So maybe it's the way losing tables are affecting me psychologically. But whatever it is, I'm cutting back on the logic and going more with my gut. I'm also going to stop multi-tabling 1/2 until I get more experience at one or two tables at a time. That's logical.

grjr

06-15-2005, 04:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi grjr, ...your logic is faulty. Nobody agrees with your philosophy on good/bad tables...We aren't all wrong.-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]And every time I start to believe you all I go into a losing streak.

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand the logic and I have tried to apply it, staying at tables that appear by VPIP etc. to be amongst the better tables even though I'm losing on them. Almost invariably I keep losing and getting deeper and deeper into the red on these tables. Partly I tend to resist leaving any table when I'm down on it. I feel capable of winning on almost any .5/1 table and I like to get close to even at least. But especially when it should be an easy table to get back up on. It is logical that these tables would be good to stay at.

However, I've also found that on tables where I start off taking bad beats, they usually continue. And on tables that I start off getting lucky and putting bad beats on others, that tends to continue also. That is not logical, but I feel pretty strongly it is has been a pretty consistant trend for me so far and I have about 50k hands of experience.

It may also be that I unconsciously start playing poorly on losing tables. I went back and looked at some of the hands from my last night's -100 BB table, and I played some hands very poorly. So maybe it's the way losing tables are affecting me psychologically. But whatever it is, I'm cutting back on the logic and going more with my gut. I'm also going to stop multi-tabling 1/2 until I get more experience at one or two tables at a time. That's logical.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can now die in peace knowing that one person in this world doesn't think I'm nuts.

Oh, and I agree 100% with what you said about bad play adding to the losses. I've done the same thing myself. I get caught up sometimes trying to beat "The Fish Who Won't Lose". He's the guy to your left who calls every one of your raises with crap and hits a pair every time. Then gives away your money to everyone else at the table. I hate that guy.

Kumubou

06-15-2005, 04:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and I agree 100% with what you said about bad play adding to the losses. I've done the same thing myself. I get caught up sometimes trying to beat "The Fish Who Won't Lose". He's the guy to your left who calls every one of your raises with crap and hits a pair every time. Then gives away your money to everyone else at the table. I hate that guy.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well there's part of your problem. Awful relative position at an otherwise great table can make it completly unplayable. Sitting to the right of a couple of LAG/LPPs and to the left of a couple of TAGs is a great formula to win the minimum and lose the maximum.

(Online poker games need a seat change option bad. Trying to just-frame a table change online is nigh impossible at a decent game on Party, ditto with most other sites.)

-K

stlip

06-15-2005, 08:51 AM

Any game can make you look bad and question your play. This is me during the last week and a half.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/stlip/looksbad.jpg

But the 1/2 game is crushable. This is me over the last 7-8 months.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/stlip/1_2graphlifetime.jpg

I don't play the typical 2+2 style. My VPIP is a little higher than average 22-23. Because I play more hands my post flop ag is considered way too low 1.66. My W$SD hovers at barely above 50 percent because I play marginal hands in multiway pots against bad players (search for Ed Miller's post "Take the Training Wheels Off). But sometimes I don't even have to go to showdown with these hands so my W$WSF is higher than average at 35 percent.

McGahee

06-15-2005, 10:17 AM

Heh, that guy drives me nuts too. I'm embarassed to admit this, but then I again I post here to become a better player and get a kick in ass from people who know better, not to impress anybody...
Your post describes my crappy session last night so well, it's scary. I started yelling at the monitor like a whining, self-loathing fish. "How do you hit a pair EVERY TIME vs. me and always have crap against everyone else? I hope you die". I did 3 or 4 20BB rebuys in 2 hours. Probably my worst tilt experience ever; I began check-raising turns with nothing when I knew there was no chance of villian folding. That alone should've been reason enough for me to leave the table.
Now if I may contradict myself, I did recoup half of my losses within the last half-hour at this table. I feel like I was lucky to do so.
I don't know what my point is; I feel like my game has hit a wall recently and needed to vent....while my B/R has doubled since moving to 1/2 SH, I have come to the realization that it is mostly due to bonuses. I probly need to figure out this newly acquired PT/GT stuff...I really have no clue how to use it.