Play A Hand With Me UB 5/10 NL

[RollaJ]

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB <font color="red"> PF Raiser </font> ($2575.75)
UTG ($989)
Hero ($1272)
MP1 ($298.50)
MP2 ($990)
MP3 ($1594.50)
CO ($999.75)
Button ($987)
SB ($960)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero calls $10, MP1 calls $10, DC calls $10, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $10, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB <font color="red"> PF Raiser </font> raises to $55</font>, Hero calls $45, MP1 calls $45, CO folds.

Flop: ($190) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>

<font color="red"> PF Raiser </font> bets $180.

<font color="blue"> Whats Your Play? </font>

[xorbie]

Would folding be too weak? I don't think he's making a continuation bet into a field of 4 callers on that board with AK, and he's not raising much less from the BB after so many limpers. I think his range is TT+ and you really don't beat much there.

[kagame]

3 handed to the flop, yes? he could easily be making a continuation bet, i think this is player dependent, noone has shown any strength and pf raiser seems to be making everything but a set fold, seems to strong to want a call, again, player dependent

i like reraising preflop

i WOULD like raising flop and folding to an all in, except Ax /images/graemlins/heart.gif is likely to be stubborn

[Jonny]

I'd make it 325 to go and see what happens.

[xorbie]

What do you think his hand range is here? AK, TT+? You beat two of those hands, and not even AK/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

[kagame]

but then you fold to an overs+flush draw push?

makes no sense, with that raise you seem pot stuck without an excellent read, look at Heros stack size, its barely $1000 more after matching the flop bet

[RollaJ]

That was the best non Jack flop I could hope for, I made it $400 to go, leaving me 800 behind. MP folded. PFR folded.

I felt 400 was a good number, as if he pushed there is really only one hand I can beat (TT), and A/K-Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif which is a race, and many I am behind to so I figured Id be able to get away from the hand and not lose my entire stack.

Thoughts?

BTW.... I hate the reraise pf suggestion with JJ

[kagame]

well he'll be stealing alot of the time, or will put you on an AA/KK UTG limp reraise, hello!

and youre in position on the pf raiser if you get HU, hes in the blinds.

[Ulysses]

If he has AK and you call, what will he do on a blank turn?

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate the reraise pf suggestion with JJ


[/ QUOTE ]

[kagame]

then youre calling to set, and fold the flop otherwise?

granted it turns your hand into rubbish, but i see people fold QQ to UTG limp reraises quite often, and it MIGHT make the hand less expensive overall if you dump it preflop...

considering the unsatisfactory options most people have been giving to deal with the dangerous flop bet

you can say you hate the option of limp reraising utg with JJ, fine i understand why, but what about the rest of the hand?

[flawless_victory]

if youre not calling off youre other 800, then i hate the raise... why dont you just do this with 23o?

[whodaman]

why limp call preflop
coming in for a raise makes this much easier...

[spoohunter]

I fold. I don't think AK is leading into this field, unless he's got hearts.

[spoohunter]

[ QUOTE ]
If he has AK and you call, what will he do on a blank turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

In a heads up or three handed pot, I like playing JJ with a call on the flop. If you raise, the only hands that play are ones that beat you. If you call, any hand you beat is usually going to check the turn, then you can bet and take it away.

Of course if AA or KK checks the turn, or AK bets again, your AK hits, you're in trouble, but I find it's often better than raising the flop and folding to a push or raising the flop and calling a push. You trade 6 outs, for $400 saved whenever you're behind.

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
why limp call preflop
coming in for a raise makes this much easier...

[/ QUOTE ]

How so?

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he has AK and you call, what will he do on a blank turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

In a heads up or three handed pot, I like playing JJ with a call on the flop. If you raise, the only hands that play are ones that beat you. If you call, any hand you beat is usually going to check the turn, then you can bet and take it away.

Of course if AA or KK checks the turn, or AK bets again, your AK hits, you're in trouble, but I find it's often better than raising the flop and folding to a push or raising the flop and calling a push. You trade 6 outs, for $400 saved whenever you're behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right or wrong I hate giving AK another chance to hit, plus if I smooth call, there is still no guarentee that he plays it the way Id like on the turn

This is really one of the toughest situations I run into in NL, on a fairly regular basis

[captZEEbo1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why limp call preflop
coming in for a raise makes this much easier...

[/ QUOTE ]

How so?

[/ QUOTE ]

b/c you don't have to deal with someone's steal raise and seeing if they have garbage or QQ-AA for your whole stack.

[soah]

How much of this hand is entirely fabricated?

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero calls $10

[/ QUOTE ]

Where is UTG? Why are you acting first?

[ QUOTE ]
, MP1 calls $10, DC calls $10,

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is MP2 known as DC now?

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $10, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB <font color="red"> PF Raiser </font> raises to $55</font>, Hero calls $45, MP1 calls $45, CO folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did our friend "DC" go? I think he was supposed to act between MP1 and CO?

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: ($190) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Five players to the flop? I can see three of them.

How can you expect any constructive advice when you have butchered the hand history so that no one can even tell what actually happened? You've obviously edited the text that the converter gave you (adding the redundant "Preflop Raiser" next to BB's actions, typing in the flop action manually, and changing MP2's name to DC), so what I don't understand is why you would go to the trouble of changing all that stuff, but not actually making the hand make any sense.

[augie00]

I think that he's concerned with answering the question "What do I do when I have a weak overpair facing a continuation bet from an agressive pf raisor." The details of the hand do not need to be THAT specific. Whether or not it is a fictional hand does not matter.

[punter11235]

Forgive me this lame question but how this can be valid ?
If you raise your opponent know what you have (at least he knows the range of hands better) when you limp and he raised he doesnt know anything.
"having to deal with steal attempts" cant be any problem because all poker playign is about dealing with diffrent attempts of our opponents.
In my opinion situation is simple : when you raise UTG you make a trade : 1)more money into the pot but 2)more information for your opponents.
When you limp and they raise you have 1) and you dont worry about 2). This situation is a lot better isnt it ?

Best wishes

[soah]

Whether there are three people or five people in the hand makes a huge difference.

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]
Whether there are three people or five people in the hand makes a huge difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. When I made my post, I was under the understanding that 5 people saw a flop in which the BB raised 5 limpers. Now unless he is very agressive and trying to pick up a lot of pots preflop, I think folding this flop is still right. You are significantly behind his range. Also, I think if he is agressively trying to pick up the pot PF and you are ahead of his range, I don't think the limp raise is bad and is probably pretty good in this situation.

[BluffTHIS!]

There are a lot of valid reasons to limp with this hand preflop, the principle one being that when you mostly don't flop a set you don't feel it necessary to make a continuation bet into other players who might have flopped a better hand or smoothcalled you with QQ or even AA/KK. In the actual hand itself, I would either fold or reraise to 400 and fold to a reraise, or if called check behind on the turn no matter what hit if I didn't spike my set. Just calling to the river if the board stays raggedy is usually going to be horrible unless against a LAG who will always continue to push AK and no pair in front like that.

[Snag]

This is painful. JJ is one of the top 5 strongest hands in Hold'em. Why you're arguing for not raising it UTG is blowing my mind. But, but - what if this, but, but what if that. If you don't raise, you know nothing about the field that you're up against. Limping here is like playing JJ the same way you'd play 22. JJ is waaaaay ahead of too many hands to play it this painfully weakly. If you flop an over out of position - you continue to bet - if you get called or raise - dump it. Information, information, information - don't give your money away by weakly playing strong hands.

[chumdawg]

[ QUOTE ]
if youre not calling off youre other 800, then i hate the raise... why dont you just do this with 23o?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because limping with 23o from UTG+1, then calling a raise with three more people left to act, and then raising the flop...is generally going to lose you a lot of money?

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Limping here is like playing JJ the same way you'd play 22.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, read SuperSystem its a hell of a book, IMHO. It explains, and basically supports treating JJ like 22.


[ QUOTE ]
How so?

[/ QUOTE ]
When I asked how opening for a raise would avoid this confusion, I dont think it was a a stupid question. Sure that would very likely prevent the PF raiser from "stealing" with 89s, but many hands he raised with, he would still raise with, and if he were the only player left to act he could disguise himself in a heads up situation by just calling with AA/KK.



[ QUOTE ]
How much of this hand is entirely fabricated?

[/ QUOTE ]
I really do apologize for that, everyone on this forum loves the converters, though I do fine reading HHs. That being said, I took the HH out of PokerTracker and converted it at Bisons. I guess the PT format isnt exactly the same as when UB sends it over. The part where I manually typed "PF raiser" was because it was coming up with screwey numbers instead of a name for the player. And I really just looked at the action and saw all the important stuff was there, didnt pay close attention to the rest. Basically, none of the hand was fabricated, just ran into some glitches while converting it. (If you want the HH# you can have it) /images/graemlins/laugh.gif


BTW, I also agree that I play this differentlt PostFlop if there were 5 to the flop, as I said the converter didnt work right, and I didnt catch the errors, there were in fact 3 total to the flop.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]

Exactly, read SuperSystem its a hell of a book, IMHO. It explains, and basically supports treating JJ like 22.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's one way to do it. I make more money treating JJ like JJ, though.

Re: my earlier question (what would he do w/ unimproved AK on the turn), one of the things I like to get a quick pulse on is what kind of players I'm up against. Even at a new table, you can usually figure out pretty quickly how many barrels certain players will fire with certain types of hands. That will make these types of hands much easier to play.

[jumister5889]

I'd reraise him to 365 and see what happens. I think he has Acerag /images/graemlins/heart.gif and is on the flush draw. Maybe its even a continuation bet but i dont think he has necessarily TT+. He is a PF raiser so he doesnt always have things like TT+. The most likely hand he has now if he is a PF raiser is Ax (x being a rag) or Ax /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Either he hit his X on that board or hes on flush draw. Reraise him and see waht happens from there

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Exactly, read SuperSystem its a hell of a book, IMHO. It explains, and basically supports treating JJ like 22.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's one way to do it. I make more money treating JJ like JJ, though.

Re: my earlier question (what would he do w/ unimproved AK on the turn), one of the things I like to get a quick pulse on is what kind of players I'm up against. Even at a new table, you can usually figure out pretty quickly how many barrels certain players will fire with certain types of hands. That will make these types of hands much easier to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I apoologize for not responding earlier, as I really value your input. The reason I did not respond, is that I am somewhat new to 5-10 NL , and have played perhaps only 5-10,000 hands across 3 sites. That being said I did not have a good enough read on the guy to determine how he plays AK, or if he's usually a double-barrel kinda guy. If I did know that 80% of the time he would check a missed AK-Q on the turn, I would probably have just called. Unfortunately, I did not have a good enough read on his play though.

As for playing JJ like JJ, I think pf playing it like 22 is fine. After the flop, I certainly played it differently tho. Also, there are times I raise with JJ UTG, but Id guess 2/3rds of the time Ill limp, as I like to see what develops behind me. I also have no problem just check folding the flop if 5 people limp in, and the flop is not a favorable one...... do you think I should be raising more often UTG with hands like 99-JJ

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I did not respond, is that I am somewhat new to 5-10 NL , and have played perhaps only 5-10,000 hands across 3 sites. That being said I did not have a good enough read on the guy to determine how he plays AK, or if he's usually a double-barrel kinda guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I am talking about sitting at a table and playing a couple of rounds and getting a read based on that. This is something that will come w/ experience, but based on betting patterns and how they play hands in general, you will start to very quickly get a feeling about how someone would most likely play a common situation like AK that misses.

[ QUOTE ]
do you think I should be raising more often UTG with hands like 99-JJ

[/ QUOTE ]

For many reasons, I will always open w/ a standard open-raise with hands like that. Bigger pots, tougher to play against, etc. There's fundamentally nothing wrong with limping, either. It's largely a style issue. FWIW, I limp more often than most in NL, but I'm usually doing that with some weird hands when the stacks are deeper. In standard situations I'm typically open-raising most anything I play.

[9cao]

In limit I agree. But in NL and full ring I think you need to mix this up. If I am late position and I see an EP raise I am usually saying to myslef (AA-JJ, AK). Makes it easy to play against people who play this way all the time.

[illegit]

Raise preflop, doing so will make your decisions postflop (or preflop if re-raised) infinitely simpler.

[kagame]

anyone else min raise utg with this sort of hand (middle pair, or a hit or miss the flop)?