Hand against 2+2er.

[Entity]

We've been playing a few orbits. I think I know who this is but I might not -- his PartyPoker name is the name of a noted 2+2er that I thought was playing much higher, so I'm not absolutely sure. I've been raising a lot to isolate the loose-passive on my left, and 2+2er has generally been getting out of the way. He's 3-bet me a few times preflop but hasn't had to show down yet, as I completely missed the flop with (KTs on an A35r board, etc). From his stats (35/20/3) I know he's very capable of a LAG game and would probably be 3-betting knowing I give up a bit easily on ugly flops.

So yeah. On to the hand. LP UTG player folds and I raise K/images/graemlins/club.gif9/images/graemlins/club.gif from the CO. 2+2er 3-bets from the Button. Blinds fold.

Flop is K/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gifT/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I check, 2+2er bets, I call.

Turn is the 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif. I check, 2+2er bets, I call.

River is the 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I quickly debate bet-folding, check-calling, and check-folding, and decide to check-call.

Sound about standard? Forgive my stupid questions but I'm still running like crap in this game and I'm trying to get a handle on it.

Rob

[krishanleong]

I at least cr the flop. You probably have the best hand. What range did you give him? From your play I'd say it's way too narrow.

I think bet-call is worth considering. I don't like bet-folding against tricky TAGs. Especially when you have underrepresented your hand.

Krishan

[Subby]

Given your solid read on him, seems like you could find room for a check-raise in there somewhere - maybe the turn? He could be 3-betting with lots of hands that you are beating and his AF suggests he is trying to push you out.

[7ontheline]

Why didn't you raise anywhere? I raise the turn here when the blank hits with my top pair usually. Did you not because his 3-betting standards seemed a touch tight while you were playing?

[spydog]

Another boring hand. Seriously, it looks good.

I don't like bet-folding when I have top pair.

I think check-folding isn't an option.

I think check-calling is best. He might fire another bullet with a bluff, thinking you might have missed your OESD. Plus, he probably value bets any Q here.

Question for the masses: If you think Villian is 3-betting you light because he thinks you are weak-tight, then what is the best counter-strategy preflop? Certainly, we should be capping more, but what types of hands? Should we randomize our capping hands or cap only the better hands? What about capping every hand against this guy preflop until he slows down? Bad plan or good?

[TMFS9]

why are you sitting with this type of player directly to your left?

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
I at least cr the flop. You probably have the best hand. What range did you give him? From your play I'd say it's way too narrow.

I think bet-call is worth considering. I don't like bet-folding against tricky TAGs. Especially when you have underrepresented your hand.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

While Hero is happy to flop top pair, this flop is also likely to have hit a 3-betting Villian pretty hard. Not sure if this is the flop to play back at Villian.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I at least cr the flop. You probably have the best hand. What range did you give him? From your play I'd say it's way too narrow.

I think bet-call is worth considering. I don't like bet-folding against tricky TAGs. Especially when you have underrepresented your hand.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

While Hero is happy to flop top pair, this flop is also likely to have hit a 3-betting Villian pretty hard. Not sure if this is the flop to play back at Villian.

[/ QUOTE ]

What range do you put him on?

Krishan

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
why are you sitting with this type of player directly to your left?

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG was worth it, and in general, he had been folding to my raises and allowing me to isolate. I was 3-bet either twice or three times -- I think twice. I'd rather have him on my left where I can get him out of most pots than on my right where I'm going to have to be folding a lot.

Rob

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]


What range do you put him on?

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

66+
Suited broadways
ATo+
KJo+

I think that this flop either leaves us:

1) crushed
2) ahead with villian drawing with mucho outs.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


What range do you put him on?

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

66+
Suited broadways
ATo+
KJo+

I think that this flop either leaves us:

1) crushed
2) ahead with villian drawing with mucho outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget that villain will also be crushed occasionally, but will be prepared to fold to aggression.

I think checkraising the flop is an interesting line, but I'm not sure how much action I really want to be giving on a flop like this. That said, that's why I posted this hand.

Rob

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


What range do you put him on?

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

66+
Suited broadways
ATo+
KJo+

I think that this flop either leaves us:

1) crushed
2) ahead with villian drawing with mucho outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget that villain will also be crushed occasionally, but will be prepared to fold to aggression.

I think checkraising the flop is an interesting line, but I'm not sure how much action I really want to be giving on a flop like this. That said, that's why I posted this hand.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. If he has an underpair to the board, then you are crushing him. However, a check-raise will allow him to get away from his hand cheaply.

[kurosh]

Out of curiousity, was this me?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiousity, was this me?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno. Did you 3-bet me with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif?

[kurosh]

I would never 3-bet with J9s, even if I thought you were a complete retard. It should be fairly obvious from my screen name if it was me.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I would never 3-bet with J9s, even if I thought you were a complete retard. It should be fairly obvious from my screen name if it was me.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the screen name wasn't related to yours. I know a lot of 2+2ers use other 2+2er screenames though -- bisonbison wasn't bisonbison, that sort of thing -- so I don't know if this guy is the same person as his screen name.

Rob

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
I would never 3-bet with J9s, even if I thought you were a complete retard. It should be fairly obvious from my screen name if it was me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would if he was as weak-tight as Entity.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would never 3-bet with J9s, even if I thought you were a complete retard. It should be fairly obvious from my screen name if it was me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would if he was as weak-tight as Entity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Touche. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I actually don't hate his 3-bet given how hands between he and I had been working out, but I'm not really sure what else I'm supposed to do in situations where I raised with a decent hand, I'm 3-bet by a thinking LAG, and I've got something like K-high on an A35r flop, or Q-high on a K75r flop.

Rob

[freehat]

I think you played this hand perfect you want to see a showdown and put in the right amount of action, you are most likely way ahead or way behind.

[freehat]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually don't hate his 3-bet given how hands between he and I had been working out, but I'm not really sure what else I'm supposed to do in situations where I raised with a decent hand, I'm 3-bet by a thinking LAG, and I've got something like K-high on an A35r flop, or Q-high on a K75r flop.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

On those flops there's nothing you can do, just check-fold, you can't win every pot. And remember its tough to win in limit holdem without flopping pairs.

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
We've been playing a few orbits. I think I know who this is but I might not -- his PartyPoker name is the name of a noted 2+2er that I thought was playing much higher, so I'm not absolutely sure. I've been raising a lot to isolate the loose-passive on my left, and 2+2er has generally been getting out of the way. He's 3-bet me a few times preflop but hasn't had to show down yet, as I completely missed the flop with (KTs on an A35r board, etc). From his stats (35/20/3) I know he's very capable of a LAG game and would probably be 3-betting knowing I give up a bit easily on ugly flops.

So yeah. On to the hand. LP UTG player folds and I raise K/images/graemlins/club.gif9/images/graemlins/club.gif from the CO. 2+2er 3-bets from the Button. Blinds fold.

Flop is K/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gifT/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I check, 2+2er bets, I call.

Turn is the 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif. I check, 2+2er bets, I call.

River is the 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I quickly debate bet-folding, check-calling, and check-folding, and decide to check-call.

Sound about standard? Forgive my stupid questions but I'm still running like crap in this game and I'm trying to get a handle on it.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Ni han. Check raising the flop could get you in hot water, and could easily slow down or fold a worse hand. If this guy is tricky, you can't really bet fold the river, so check-calling the whole way is ideal.

[DMBFan23]

entity,

isn't it time for the old check call, check call, bet line?

I can understand your rationale for checking the river - it would suck to get moved off your hand here, and he seems capable of it, if he is thinking on that level.

the debate between bet-call and bet fold IMO should sway towards bet call, but you might have to revise that based on what you've seen him do in past hands.

I think check call on the river is ok even though the "ABC" line is to bet it.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
entity,

isn't it time for the old check call, check call, bet line?

I can understand your rationale for checking the river - it would suck to get moved off your hand here, and he seems capable of it, if he is thinking on that level.

the debate between bet-call and bet fold IMO should sway towards bet call, but you might have to revise that based on what you've seen him do in past hands.

I think check call on the river is ok even though the "ABC" line is to bet it.

[/ QUOTE ]

DMB,

It's a lot tougher when a hand like AQ or AJ or 88 may not be capable of calling but may very well be capable of raising, at least a small portion of the time. I'm way ahead of his handrange and it'd kinda suck if he checked behind, but it wouldn't be terrible as I think it's capable of folding a worse hand.

Rob

[DMBFan23]

good point Rob, AQ was one of the hands in my mind that might raise on one of those next level kind of plays. also if he can fold some payoff hands then that is no good, since there are less of them than normal (but still enough to see a SD) on that board

[djoyce003]

I don't mind it. I prefer check calling down here with top pair, bad kicker, just like you did. The conventional wisdom here might be check call, check call, bet, but I really don't want to be raised on the river, and I'd like to see a showdown with my top pair, your line gets you there easier. I don't like raising on any street, because it's going to fold out hands that you have beat if the guy is a reasonable player. It seems like against decent players that will fold, all a raise does is keep him from losing more. The only hands that a raise is good against here is QJ or JT or something like that, that is drawing for the straight. As long as he's paying a bet on every street though, it's ok to just call down.

[kiddo]

You stealraise from CO and a 35/20 3bet from button, u flop toppair and check all way?

Its way to weak. There are a ton of guys with theses stats at 10/20 and u must punish them when u hit because they will certainly punish u when they hit.

U have to attack somewhere. If he likes to bluff I can see check-call, check-call, bet. But u can also cr flop.