Thinking of buying Eastbay's program

[45suited]

Okay, I've been thinking for some time about buying Eastbay's program but I have a question which on the surface might sound flameworthy, but...

Since the hard decisions that this program are designed to help us with are so dependent upon our reads of the other players, how helpful really is the program?

This is not intended in any way as a criticism of the program. Eastbay is a brilliant guy and I get alot from his posts. Also, I'm sure that in the hands of many players that his program is invaluable.

My question is: Has anybody noticed (due to their own fault and not the program) that their play has acually gotten worse due to the fact that they are ignoring their initial "gut" instincts at the table? I know that it is all about the math, but it is so dependent upon what range you put your opponents on.

For example, in this thread: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2630308&page=&view=&s b=5&o=

My gut instinct would be a very solid call. I would just "know" that with the range that the guy is pushing with, AQ would be well worth a call, especially given the fact that if I got a huge stack my chances of winning would be high. But if I don't pull the correct range out of my butt for the purposes of the program, it might come up a fold.

Again, I'm not advocating not going by the numbers (or I wouldn't even be on this site). I'm just curious if anyone, because of a problem with themselves (not the program) has found that their play might have actually suffered as a result of becoming too dependent upon the program.

Are there situations that come up where you have come to realize that the program is less valuable than others? For example, if you push 3 hands in a row, do you think that the numbers given by the program might be less accurate because of the very real possibility of a spite call?

Also, does the program take into account all of the dynamics related to the relative chip counts of all the players? For example, if during bubble time, I'm solidly in 3rd place, the two chipleaders are to my left, and the shortstack has 50 chips in the BB, does the program take this dynamic into account when it considers my action?

What I'm getting at is that I don't want my play to just become robotic, but at the same time, I don't doubt that this program has very real value. However, I see top players such as Curtains who probably call on the bubble far more than the program would advocate, and he is extremely successful. I'm pretty sure that this program is a must buy for me, but I just wanted to get some feedback on these questions. Thanks.

[Moonsugar]

buy it

[Jman28]

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buy it

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[wildzer0]

Think of it as a great time-saving device. Just because you know the numbers doesn't mean you have to follow them 100% if you choose not to. They're still extremely important to know.

[mosdef]

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Since the hard decisions that this program are designed to help us with are so dependent upon our reads of the other players, how helpful really is the program?

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if you understand the model, and understand it's shortcomings, and use it accordingly, then it will help.

if you don't understand the model and you don't understand it's shortcomings and blindly use it as a call/fold/push determining black box, it will lead you astray from time to time.

anyway, i would say that if you're interested in spending the time use the tool AND think about it while using it, you should buy it. if you are hoping to get a complete and foolproof program that will tell you exactly what to do every time, you probably shouldn't buy it (sorry eastbay).

[wildzer0]

err..i mean:
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buy it

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[flyby4553]

I wish I could afford it right now, but my (small) bankroll cant take the hit /images/graemlins/mad.gif. I will say that I will be buying it as soon as I have the money and am not concerned about it counteracting my gut and causing me to lose.

[45suited]

Thanks. Kinda knew I should buy it, just wanted some feedback first. B/R and cost was never an issue, just wanted to know what the consenus was...

[Lady Dont Tekno]

Sure alot of top posters that own the tool sometimes make plays that the numbers don't always justify.

But there's more to poker than numbers.

Buy it and understand all the situations. All you really have to do is earn an extra $80 in the long run.

//LDT

[momo24]

I actually think the program has had the opposite effect on me. When you put the numbers in and play around with the program, you'll see that a lot of situations where the range you put your opponent on is the one factor that really determines whether it's a push or a fold. So since I've started using the program, I've actually started paying more attention to trying to get reads on my opponents (especially 1 and 2 seats to my left) because I know that there will be many situations where my decision is made based the range I put my opponent on.

That said, I'm just getting started playing SNGs and so I hadn't developed a "gut feel" for these types of situations. I'm sure that someone who has been playing these for awhile could, through trial-and-error, end up having a pretty good guess at what the right play is. For someone like me, I've had the program two weeks and have probably spent 6-8 hours messing around with it, and now I'm starting to develop a decent feel for playing the bubble. So for a beginner, I think the program dramatically cuts down the amount of time it takes to learn how to play the bubble and saves you a decent amount of money because you don't have to learn by having a few months of 4th-5th place finishes.

[Moonsugar]

As I have said in other threads I think Pokertracker is the best piece of software you can buy and I would buy that 1st if you don't already own it. If I could only have 1 piece of software this would be it. Eastbay's program is very good and should be next.

[gasgod]

BTW, eastbay has said that it's not designed for use while playing. In fact, the interface deliberately discourages that because it would be unethical. (I hope I got it right, and that I'm not putting words in his mouth.)

GG

[ewing55]

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it's not designed for use while playing.

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You are exactly right. It will auto load hands for you (chip counts/stacks, your hand & position the action up until your decision) AFTER YOU HAVE MADE YOUR DECISION! Of course, if you could type realy, really fast & accurate, you could imput all the information and get a decision while you are playing, but not likely.

What is cool is to decide to fold or push and then immediately open up the hand and see what eastbay's tool says was the right decision. Immediate feedback! (My butt's sore from kicking it so many times /images/graemlins/laugh.gif)

Bottom Line: Buy It. if you are playing the 10s or above you can't afford not to. You win rate will quickly make up the minor cost of the program. If you can't afford it, you really shouldn't be playing poker for profit.

--------------Jeff

I would really like the program at $40 or $50. At $80, I think it should let me calculate EV in real time.

[EnderFFX]

Link for eastbay's program?

[45suited]

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I would really like the program at $40 or $50. At $80, I think it should let me calculate EV in real time.

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1) If you actually use and learn from the program, why would $30 make a difference? You'll make it back rather quickly.

2) That would be totally unethical. Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it does to me. Plus, I want to actually become a better poker player, not a better cheater. Eastbay has made it clear several times over that it is not meant for usage at the table. I for one hope that the program is never so quick and easy to use that real time usage would be possible.

If that ever happens, there will probably be someone who attains a 210% ROI. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif