When Have You Had Enough?

[Subby]

Maybe this is better suited to the psychology forum, but I wanted to really hear from folks playing the same type of game I am...

Anyway, when I first moved to 5/10 sh, I set a pretty draconian stop-loss limit of 30BB. That kind of blurred as I started adding tables, and now I don't really *know* when to quit. On one hand, I am a lot more apt to stop playing if I am up for the night. For example, last night I was up $430 in 166 hands and decided to call it a night. The previous night I just got completely pwned and didn't turn the computer off until I was down $730.

Does it make sense to make limits and just say, "I am going to play X number of hands tonight and then stop, regardless of results." Or do you say, "I am going to quit after I either win or lose X amount of money?"

I am thinking the best approach is top keep sessions from being open-ended, but I would be interested in hearing how others approach this.

Thanks.

[Jeff W]

I try to quit if I lose 100 BBs in a night.

[MAxx]

-When I sit down... I usually say I plan on playing until X-o'clock. I may plan to take breaks along the way. I keep playing reguardless of results, unless I feel like I am slippin up and either playing bad or emotional or something out of the ordinary. Your dollar thresholds are silly, and causes you to focus on the wrong stuff.

[afk]

I generally set a time limit for which I want to play. Sometimes it's only a half hour, sometimes is two hours. I just quit at the end, and most of the time I'll be ready to quit and not feel like playing anymore. However if I'm getting thumped and I can tell that's it's starting to affect my play and tilt me I might just pack up early and go do something else.

[King Yao]

I would suggest to keep playing when you are winning, and be more apt to stop playing when you are losing. When people win, they are more apt to "run with the money" and leave the table. They are happy they've had a winning session and their fear is that they will lose back their winnings. What they don't seem to realize is that when they are winning, they are positioned well to win even more. The other players will respect your play more, thus allowing you to control the game. Your bluffs and semi-bluffs won't be called down as much, and they are more afraid to bet into you (because you've shown down some good hands since you've been winning). Also, you are in a better state of mind, and not thinking 'I gotta get even, I gotta get even', that you may when you are "stuck". That type of attitude (to get even when stuck), can really destroy a player. Typically they play wilder and more reckless...but this is not the time to do it. Other players won't fear you and will call you down.

Of course, these are all generalities. But, I would suggest to try to play longer sessions when you start off winning, and try to stop yourself and leave the tables when you start off losing...until you are to the point where you are so comfortable with your game and know how to adjust to how others see your current image, that you don't think it matters anymore.

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
...until you are to the point where you are so comfortable with your game and know how to adjust to how others see your current image, that you don't think it matters anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this should be one of your goals as a poker player from the get go. The only way to get there, IMO, is to practice it from the get go. That other stuff you mention above this statement definitely contains some truths about image, etc., but I don't think it will help you develop as soundly.

[phish]

I usually play until I'm broke. Then I have to wait a couple of days until I can steal more money from my mother to buy in again. We're getting evicted this week cause she couldn't pay the rent. So I told her to get a third job.

[MAxx]

And I thank you and your momma both. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[TylerD]

[ QUOTE ]
For example, last night I was up $430 in 166 hands and decided to call it a night. The previous night I just got completely pwned and didn't turn the computer off until I was down $730.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have the exact same problem and its something I'm working really hard to fix (along with the constant cashier clicking problem).

[RunDownHouse]

Since I moved to playing almost exclusively at Absolute, I'm constantly shuttling money in and out to build up that bonus. As a result, I have no idea at any given time how much I "should" have in my account, so checking the cashier to see if I'm up or down on the session is worthless. Its great.

[TylerD]

hmmm...you don't track where your bankroll is? That's not good.

[krishanleong]

Some notes on people setting goals for themselves (tangentially related)

Setting money goals is really stupid. You can't control the cards. Some nights you will win and some you will lose. You should play as long as you have an edge on the table. If your image sucks and you don't think you can adjust, leave the table.

Setting hand goals is better. That way you play regardless of whether you are up or down until you fill your quota of hands. The only problem is you might feel pressure to play more tables than optimal to reach your goal (or reach your goal faster)

Setting hour goals is the best. This is what I do. I have goals for each day, goals for the week, and goals for the month. I know that on average I'll make X dollars each month if I play the hours.

Playing for hours or hands instead of money makes me feel better when I'm on a downswing.

Krishan

[RunDownHouse]

Oh, at any given time I know how much my total bankroll is, within a couple hundred probably. But its much more work to check what size deposits I made to Abso and when, and then what size withdrawals I made and when, and then do the math to see I'm up 3BBs on the session or whatever, than it is to just click on the cashier at Party and see that the total is 3BBs above $X.

So far I've been making 6+ cashier transactions a week at Abso. The point is that at Abso its much harder to just click on the cashier and see, "OMG right now I'm stuck 15BBs this session!" and that has helped me not worry about it nearly as much.

[krishanleong]

What limits at absolute?

Krishan

[chezlaw]

Setting a stop limit forces you to worry about how your doing which probably has a detrimental affect on your play.

Concentrate on how we are playing not how are doing. Stop playing when we start playing nearly as badly as the opposition.

This sounds right to me, now I just need to learn how to do it regularly.

chez

[stir]

Why almost exclusively Abso?

The reason I ask is that I would think a player of your caliber (based on solid advice in your posts) could make $$ at several different sites.

[mindflayer]

P317 Weighing the odds
When is it time to leave?
" I have a friend named Dean.."

King Yao and most other authors will tell you the same.
Keep playing when your winning and end when you start losing.

But lets say you start losing right off the mark, then what?
If your getting sucked out, keep playing.
If you are getting dominated (agression wise)..Change tables.

I usually set a flexible finish time, but with a minimum session time such as 2h and will only finish earlier if I feel tired.
Another time i usually finish is right after the donkfish has just busted out and left the table.

[fyodor]

yao and krishan have both stated pretty much how I feel on the subject. That's the standard advice you will get from most any winning player. Recently though I found myself in a situation that I felt waranted going against that advice.

I had be owning the 5/10 for quite awhile. I was feeling invincible at that limit as it had been so long since I had posted anything remotely aproaching a significant loss. Then I went off for about 100 big bets one night. Not even close to a big deal. Check my history, I've had a slide 5 times that in the past.

Anyhow it was very depressing even though I knew how tiny that blip was. The next day though I started in the hole again. Now I was wondering wtf had happened. Was I really just running that well for that long and now a few suckouts and I couldn't post a win?

Well I turned it around that day and got up about $250 on the day. I could have played a few hundred more hands easily but instead booked the win and went to bed. Psychologically I felt much the better for it. Next day I went back to my winning ways.

I did ask a cpl people whose opinions I very much respect how they felt about the subject. Consensus was that although yao and krishan are for the most part right, sometimes psychological circumstances can outweight the math.

Take care of your head and it will take care of your bankroll.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I turned it around that day and got up about $250 on the day. I could have played a few hundred more hands easily but instead booked the win and went to bed. Psychologically I felt much the better for it. Next day I went back to my winning ways.

I did ask a cpl people whose opinions I very much respect how they felt about the subject. Consensus was that although yao and krishan are for the most part right, sometimes psychological circumstances can outweight the math.

Take care of your head and it will take care of your bankroll.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep . . . been there, done that.

My stop-loss used to be 75BB, but I've noted that after 50BB my play tends to deteriorate massively, so I changed my stop-loss a couple weeks ago to 40BB. Lucky me, I haven't had to use it yet /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

As far as when I quit . . . if I'm winning, I quit when I'm getting tired. If I think I'm winning because I've been running well, but that my opponents aren't completely horrible, I'll be more inclined to get up than if my opponents are a big-ass collective fish tank, in which case I have no choice but to prop open my eyelids with toothpicks and keep going.

I think I'm similar to a lot of players, in that the swings affect my play a lot more than they should, esp. once you get into the -40BB+ range. So, f'ck it, from now on I'm stopping once I hit -40BB. Which can happen pretty quickly if you get a bad run of cards, admittedly, but it ain't like the poker tables are going anywhere. They'll be there tomorrow.

I'm still getting used to 10/20, and that includes the $$ amounts . . . I imagine that in a month or two I'll go back to the -75BB stop-loss.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
sometimes psychological circumstances can outweight the math.

[/ QUOTE ]

I definitely agree with this, especially for downswings. Even if you think you are playing your A game, small things change when you drop 100 BB in a day. Nearly all the time you are better off learning how to destroy low limit omaha 8.

I think if you are regularly letting the psychological game make you stop playing when you are ahead, you are in bad shape. Fyodor's scenerio is the first, quit when you are ahead scenerio I have seen that might be warrented.

Krishan

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
I think if you are regularly letting the psychological game make you stop playing when you are ahead, you are in bad shape. Fyodor's scenerio is the first, quit when you are ahead scenerio I have seen that might be warrented.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

This may be the first scenario you've seen in which his decision makes sense, but I'd be surprised if this is the first time you've seen this scenario, as it is extraordinarily common -- you lose a huge amount Day 1, then decide to just book a small win Day 2 to help you get over the hump. Certainly it's better if you can just keep playing and take whatever the Poker Gods decide to hand out . . . but like I said, pretty common.

[Robk]

nice post

[droolie]

I've only stopped playing early while winning and able to continue once. I still feel stupid for doing it. I had been in the red at 6-max for a couple months and everytime I'd get my winrate positive I'd find a way to go on a cold string at the end of the night and finish up in the red. On this occassion I went on a sudden fearsome tear and I finally got my lifetime balance at 6-max 30BB's in the green at around 11:00 on a Saturday night after only playing for about an hour an a half. I usually play 4 or 5 hours until 2 or 3am on Saturday night but my fragile psyche and recent experiences of spoiling my nights work just before bed caused me to run away. I just had to go to bed ahead and feeling good about myself for once. The next day I went on a 100BB downswing. LOL!

As far as how I play I try not to set any $$ stop loss liits. I play for a certain number of raked hands if I'm whoring (which is almost always) because I'm usually under time pressure to clear a bonus. I set that number based on the amount of time I think I want to play. For me on a typical night I'll try to get in 500 raked hands. If no bonus is involved I play until a certain time and only alter that time up or down if I'm getting tired or if I'm wide awake and at great tables. I never quit while I'm behind if I still have some poker left in me. I'll take a break if I notice I'm steaming but as soon as I clear my mind I go right back to the tables to try to recoup the loss. I hate finishing with a losing night and usually stay up a little later than I should to try to at least break even. I find I'm really good at playing from behind and digging out of an early loss but somehow I can't seem to sustain early wins. I need to work on that...

[kiddo]

I think u misunderstand his first post if u think he is saying its all about pshycology. If u are running bad people are taking shots at u getting tricky and they dont let u bluff as much. Its hard facts, of course u can adapt, but it doesnt channge the fact that your winrate will go down when people adapt to your bad run.

[MAxx]

i'm shocked that you'd play by a 40BB stop loss.

am i misunderstanding people?

What is all this stop loss crap. I thought we all understood that to be garbage strategy.

Sure if you have been taking some beats, have a bad image, and everyone has wratched up their aggression against you..... I certainly understand swithing talbles- that is wise. As long as you are aware of what is going on and are in a good frame of mind and play... I don't see anyreason to cut your overall session short.

Edit: I dont know, maybe it is a difference of how I define a session. To me a session is once I sit down to play poker until I am done playing poker for a set amount of time. It can involve hopping to many tables. If you are talking about one table=one session then I think I may understand better what you are talking about.

[Grisgra]

It's not as though I'm playing full time here, or playing for a living. And sure, it'd be best to be able to completely shrug of slides of any size, and just keep playing (maybe after switching tables).

But until I can do that, there's really no great harm in just getting up after I've dropped 40BB. Because I've been running g00t I haven't even had to implement the 40BB stop-loss yet -- but maybe it'll prove to be too burdensome, and I'll have to ratchet it up again. But I doubt it.

Fact is, once I've dropped 40-50BB, my play suffers from catch-up-itis, and I'm no longer having any fun. I'd be a moron to keep playing at that point. If I had to put in a certain number of hands/day to put food on my family, then I'd have to solve this problem a different way. But for now, eh, no biggie. The game will be there tomorrow.

(Also, FWIW, when I'm playing well I think I'm a 2.5-3.0BB/100 player or so, so 50BB slides, playing 10-12k hands/month, are not common. Not rare, but not common. If I were a 4-tabler making 1.5-2BB/100, or playing 20-30k hands a month, then a slide of that size would be so common that I'd have to figure something else out, i.e., suck it up and keep playing /images/graemlins/grin.gif.)

[SomethingClever]

Until two days ago, I hadn't dropped more than about 45-50 BB in any 5/10 session. My goals are usually hand based... I try to play 500 hands each time I sit down.

Then on Sunday morning I started out by losing 75 BB in 120 hands. I was going to quit, but I felt I was playing well and the games were *very* juicy, so I hung on and crawled back up to only -30 BB in about 400 hands.

Then yesterday at lunch I lost 85 BB before I knew what happened.

It really fcked with my head and now I don't know what to do.

[fyodor]

Presently rereading Feeney's 'Inside the Poker Mind' Just ran across this on pg.59:

"To be thorough I will mention that there are, in fact, occasions when quitting with a small win can make sense. If the win will break a losing streak, for example, its emotional benefits for you may outweigh other considerations."

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
What limits at absolute?

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]
2/4

[ QUOTE ]
Why almost exclusively Abso?

The reason I ask is that I would think a player of your caliber (based on solid advice in your posts) could make $$ at several different sites.

[/ QUOTE ]
Combine rakeback, endless bonus that doesn't count against rakeback, and 6max games at limits between 1/2 and 5/10, and that's where you'll find me, at least until I have the roll (and mindset) for 5/10. Exogenous costs keep holding my roll down, although I'm more and more tempted to just take a shot at 5/10.

[Kinja]

I think setting goals is a huge part of being a winning player and it is what keeps me in the black. For me anyhow, I got this uncontrolable beast in me called "The Gambler" and this beast can be unleashed or sparked easily. Took me 18 months to learn how to beat "The Gambler" at 2/4 LH. Now I play and beat the 6 max 5/10 at Party full time. I keep my BR at 250$ and cashout my profit at day end. If I lose the 250$ then I call it quits for the day, when I doubleup I call it quits for the day. I play until I double up, if it becomes a long grind (more than 4 hours)I settle for anything over 100$. This is my ticket how I beat the gambler, otherwise I would play 15/30 short and lose it all or win a crap load.

[keikiwai]

Make sure you read this (http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue5/blade0505.html).

I set a time limit.

My worst tilts ever are when I break the time limit, since if I'm up I have no problem stopping. I haven't stopped a few times when I'm down (just until I'm up again logic) and it's been my worst tilt horrible playing ever and my biggest downswings ever.

Logically only hour limit or hand limit makes sense.

Peter.

[PokerBob]

I set a goal to play "x" number of hands, and I stop when I get there.

[Justin A]

I set a hand goal also, and stop when I get there.

As an aside, am I the only one who feels like I play better when I'm stuck?

[MecosKing]

In general, i subscribe to the quit when your losing, keep on going when your winning thing. When your running well, people respect you and stay outta your way, which in turn makes it alot easier to read them, which ultimately is what separates the great SH players from just the decent ones. On the other hand when your runnin piss poor and people think 'this guy cant win' then they are gonna take shots at you, and this combined with the fact your already not in the greatest place since your 30 BB in the hole for the last hour, makes the game ALOT harder to beat.

However, I dont think that if you are playing well, and just losing because your card dead / bad beated, that justifies getting up and quitting. The absolute most IMPORTANT and CARDINAL rule, of which i can say obeying it has made/saved me LOTS, and disobeying it has cost me...well, even more probably is that when youve lost a significant amount at one table, CHANGE TABLES.

This takes care of the table image problem, and also other problems which might have been a bit more latent, like the players at that table are better than you give them credit for, or the guy to your right is just too frickin LAGgy and hard to deal with for you in particular, etc.

I mean [censored]. The advantage of playing online is that you can goto whatever table you want- and if your table either gets too tough, or loses respect for you, or both, or all three, then you can get your azz up to a fresh new table, and probly never see the other guys again EVER.

So thats my basic thing - if i think that im startin to play bad, then ill quit (or at least attempt to) - but if i dont think im atta -EV place as far as playing/tilting but am still hemmoraging off chips, i will just get off my tables, and sit down fresh at some new ones. Its good psychologically, and its also good for the reasons i mentioned. The WORST thing you can do on the other hand, and beleive me ive done it so so so so so often too, is refuse to getup from a table where your stuck until you get unstuck. bad bad bad.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
I set a hand goal also, and stop when I get there.

As an aside, am I the only one who feels like I play better when I'm stuck?

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel I play a lot better when I'm stuck. I also overperform in exams - seems my memory and mental abaility improve under pressure.

I don't understand the point of limits on time or number of hands. Unless you want to be somewhere else, keep playing when you think you're a favorite.

chez

[helpmeout]

I disagree with KingYao and Krishan.

Whether you quit or not depends on your state of mind and how you are playing.

You lose due to 2 reasons

1. You are playing poorly
2. Bad luck

(Most experienced players should know when they have had bad luck and when they are playing bad).

When you are winning, what happens is you sometimes become overconfident, you start playing too many hands, you get ahead of yourself. You then start losing and get really frustrated at having lost a good chunk of what you'd won. So playing better when winning doesnt always occur.

Sometimes it is also good to consolidate your wins, I usually only do this when I have had some decent luck and the games are poor. Other factors also come into it like you cant be bothered playing etc. You should play when your equity is the highest (you really are feeling good about playing, you are focused and the players are really poor).

Setting any goal besides playing your best at all times is nearly always setting yourself up for failure. Forcing yourself to play a set number of hands or hours when you really are having a bad day is a good way to lose money.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I set a hand goal also, and stop when I get there.

As an aside, am I the only one who feels like I play better when I'm stuck?

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel I play a lot better when I'm stuck. I also overperform in exams - seems my memory and mental abaility improve under pressure.

I don't understand the point of limits on time or number of hands. Unless you want to be somewhere else, keep playing when you think you're a favorite.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep playing when I think I'm a favorite? Goodness I'd play every waking hour. I'm not bragging either, it's just that the games are really really soft.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I set a hand goal also, and stop when I get there.

As an aside, am I the only one who feels like I play better when I'm stuck?

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel I play a lot better when I'm stuck. I also overperform in exams - seems my memory and mental abaility improve under pressure.

I don't understand the point of limits on time or number of hands. Unless you want to be somewhere else, keep playing when you think you're a favorite.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep playing when I think I'm a favorite? Goodness I'd play every waking hour. I'm not bragging either, it's just that the games are really really soft.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree and its not bragging its just a fact about how good the games are at the moment. So stop when you need to be somewhere else; sleep, life, whatever

I'm just bemused why anyone who serious about playing would worry about stoping for any other reason.

chez

[WarBus]

I go by time limits. 2 - 2.5 hours is about max for me. 2 sessions a day, 4 tabling 10-20 is all I can handle. I have quit after only 1/2 hour because I didn't feel like I was playing well. I have played longer if a truly bad player is just giving his money away.

I try not to check to see how I am doing until the session is over, but usually have a sense of where I'm at.