79o BB

[bobbyi]

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds, Button calls.

River: (13 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Final Pot: 15 BB

[wrto4556]

I like the flop and turn. Im not convinced the river is a value bet, though. If wasn't a 6 I might feel better.

[spydog]

I lead this flop and hope UTG raises to knock some people out. Checking the flop puts you in an awkward position if it's 2 bets back to you. You probably have the best hand and I wouldn't want to fold in such a big pot. What is your plan if UTG bets and someone raises the flop?

I like your turn CR.

The probably check-call the river. I don't think a better hand folds and I'm not sure that a worse hand will call. Your best play is to check and try and induce a bluff from a busted draw.

[ALL1N]

Gotta make a move on the flop or turn. Bet flop, CR flop, or bet turn all have merits.

[ipp147]

Bet the flop and hope UTG raises to clear the field.

As you didn't I like the check raise once the button bets. Given that he didn't 3 bet the turn I try and check through the river.

There is nothing here he is calling with that you beat - at a push I would say 77 or 88 but more realistically he either has the K/has you outkicked/has the flush draw.

He will check through a 9, might bluff with the flush draw and might even check through his K. He will only fold the draw to your bet

[TylerD]

I would bet the flop and hope UTG raises to help protect your hand.

Given the way to played it I like the turn raise but I would check-call the river.

EDIT: That's what you get when you don't read other responses - repetition.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the flop and hope UTG raises to help protect your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
The main reason I posted this is because I thought the flop situation was awkward. FWIW, here was my thinking when I checked
1) There is no guarantee that UTG is raising if I bet. Most people would just call here with overcards and no draw. I think most twoplustwoers rely too much on other people raising overcards, especially in low limit games where opponents are generally too passive and more than 95% of them have never heard of "cleaning up outs".
2) UTG may not bet into such a large field if I check the flop. There is a reasonable chance it will check to later position and someone there will bet.
So I was trying to weigh whether I was going to be able to get in a check-raise on the flop against somone other than UTG against whether UTG would raise overcards if I bet. Betting might be better, but I'm not sure if people are somewhat results-oriented having seen the result of the check.

[StellarWind]

I would not play this preflop. What do others think?

Checkraise the flop. You left money sitting on the table when you just called with top pair in a big field.

The difficulty with betting out is given the field size and UTG's poor position, UTG is apt to raise with an overpair or better nine, but just call with overcards. That is a very expensive situation to create for yourself. You can't really protect this hand, so go with the next best thing and make some money by checkraising.

Rest is good.

[mistrpug]

[ QUOTE ]
I would not play this preflop. What do others think?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think at 11:1 and closing the action, it's a trivial call.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't really protect this hand, so go with the next best thing and make some money by checkraising.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't we also consider check-calling and betting any good (non-A, non-K) turn card?

Rob

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
I would not play this preflop. What do others think?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a pretty easy call, no? You have great relative position to the PFR if you flop something big, which you only have to do about 1 in 20 times for this to be more profitable than folding.

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You can't really protect this hand, so go with the next best thing and make some money by checkraising.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't we also consider check-calling and betting any good (non-A, non-K) turn card?

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the edge on the flop is too big to pass up. If UTG 3-bets we don't have to go to showdown without 2pair+.

gaybetting invites incorrect folds, too.

Im not sure, though. How would you play the K turn if you planned on gaybetting?

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Can't we also consider check-calling and betting any good (non-A, non-K) turn card?

[/ QUOTE ]
They will still let you bet the turn even if you checkraise.

This is a lot like a preflop situation where you have the option of putting a value raise in, knowing that the flop may change everything. Raising the flop doesn't have much effect on your turn options. You don't know what the turn will bring but you know you are going to win more than your fair share. BTW your outs are a really important part of that. It's not only about making TPBK stand up in a big field. If you hit your hand again you will have a likely winner. Most of the people chasing you can't say that.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't really protect this hand, so go with the next best thing and make some money by checkraising.

[/ QUOTE ]
If I agreed with you that there is no way to protect this hand, then I would also agree that I might as well pull some extra money in on the flop. But I don't agree that I can't protect my hand. I think that by calling the flop and then check-raising a late position bettor on the turn I did a pretty good job of protecting my hand and I think that given the size of the pot this is more important than pulling in more money on the flop when I may not even have much of an edge.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
on the flop when I may not even have much of an edge

[/ QUOTE ]
You have a huge edge against six players. You are going to win a lot more than 1/6 of the time. Possibly you win 1/3 of the time. This is a lot of money.

[ QUOTE ]
check-raising a late position bettor on the turn

[/ QUOTE ]
This just fell out of the sky. You have no reason to expect this and it doesn't have anything to do with your flop play.

Besides, if it's so great why are people asking whether you should even bet the river headsup? The truth is that whoever picks up the baton on the turn probably has a king (or was slowplaying) and you are in bad shape. So while I agree with the opportunistic turn checkraise, it's hardly a bonanza. You're in a lot of trouble with a king on top and three players yet to act. It's not clear you have anything left to protect.

If a better turn card had come you would need to bet out to prevent a possible free card. Probably that carries more force and removes more players if you checkraise the flop. Then they at least have to wonder if their overcards are drawing dead to some monster.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
You are going to win a lot more than 1/6 of the time. Possibly you win 1/3 of the time. This is a lot of money.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't care about how much I am "possibly" winning in the best happy dream scenario we can construct. I care about how much I am winning in the average case. Given how often UTG has an overpair (or someone has me outkicked, etc.), this is nowhere near 1/3 of the time. So the amount of EV I am giving up on the flop by just calling is not nearly as much as you make it out to be.

Further, if UTG has just missed overcards, he will probably not lead the turn again (unless he helps), which means that the bet will likely come from late position. So, in the cases where I have a hand to protect, just calling the flop and trying to raise the turn often lets me do it. Saying that your turn plan "doesn't have anything to do with your flop play" is absurd. If you are thinking ahead, every street is inter-related and things stop seeming like they "just fall out of the sky".

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't care about how much I am "possibly" winning in the best happy dream scenario we can construct.

[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I was unclear. My estimate is that at the moment you acted on the flop bet, your pot equity is 1/3 on average. Failing to raise costs EV = 1 SB.

[ QUOTE ]
Further, if UTG has just missed overcards, he will probably not lead the turn again (unless he helps), which means that the bet will likely come from late position. So, in the cases where I have a hand to protect, just calling the flop and trying to raise the turn often lets me do it

[/ QUOTE ]
Why does anyone have to bet the king once UTG passes on it?

With six players in the hand the odds are good that none of the three players behind UTG will bet a hand worse than yours. Unless you know something about Button you aren't telling us?

Note also that it was the button who acted and SB conveniently folded. Any previous callers probably makes your checkraise wrong. It really is fortuitous that you got this opportunity.

Your argument really implies that you will raise a wide range of turn cards instead of betting out. How can you checkraise a blank against a PFR whom you only expect to bet better hands? Mostly you give five people freecards when you are ahead but put in 2 BB to chase.