AQs raise heads up.

[Yort Mada]

the guy just came to the table and no notes on em.

i'm just wondering if my raise in the flop was correct or not? the rest was straight forward i think but comments on all streets are welcome.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. UTG+1 posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

River: (6.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

[brettbrettr]

I'm starting to think these flop raises with overs are overused. With a poster, I'd def think its a waste of chips.

[aK13]

I would check the turn for my free card if I raised that flop.

[TheDelChop]

Yeah, if you're gonna raise the flop for a free card (which whether you know it or not is why you're doing it) at least take it. You really think someone who bet into a PF raiser is gonna fold the turn?

That said, I would bet any /images/graemlins/heart.gif on the turn. I think you probably have enough equity to bet then.

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Yort,

I would just call on the flop. I think some posters here are getting too aggressive with A-high overs.

GoT

[TheDelChop]

Although I do think this manuever is overused quite a bit I think this is a great time for it. Hero has plenty of outs and a hand he would love to see the river for as cheaply as possible with. If he had A-Qo then it would probably just be a fold. I don't think calling here is ever correct.

[sthief09]

you gotta look at the board. how likely is it that it hit him? how likely is it that he has outs if it didn't? how likely is it that he has you in bad shape, like a pair and flush draw or a pair with an A or Q kicker. I'd say pretty damn likely on all accounts. the pot is also small. I think this is a pretty routine call looking to improve on the turn to get you to showdown, otherwise folding it

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Although I do think this manuever is overused quite a bit I think this is a great time for it. Hero has plenty of outs and a hand he would love to see the river for as cheaply as possible with. If he had A-Qo then it would probably just be a fold. I don't think calling here is ever correct.

[/ QUOTE ]


all that and you didn't even put the guy on a range of hands and estimate how many outs you really have

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I would check the turn for my free card if I raised that flop.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think that's a good idea given the turn card. it's pretty likely that just improved him. I think I'd just give up if I didn't improve. A high is not looking good enough for a showdown.

[TheDelChop]

For range of hands, I would give the villian a range of four flush, pair + flush, or two pair.

If he has four flush he won't 3-bet and you'll get your free card, if he has pair + flush he might 3-bet which is ultra bad and if he has two pair, its a toss up whether or not he waits to the turn to checkraise.

Any of these hands would make me want to see the river cheaply so I raise.

[TheDelChop]

sthief,

If you call the flop, do you raise the turn with your heart draw?

[sthief09]

first of all, against that range you're in terrible shape and should fold. fortunately that's not his true range and he'll sometimes have a 3 or 6 outer. second fo all I think you should be betting the turn for a free showdown as long as you don't think you'll get check raised while holding outs. you gain an extra bet when you hit a pair that way. also, if you think there's a good chance he'll check raise bluff and can't pay off a bet, you could check behind and pay off a river bet in most cases.

you're also assuming that a raise gets you a free card. a lot of players will 3-bet a flush draw there. a lot of people will stop n go a pair. a lot of people will 3-bet top pair.

and as it is in a 5 bet pot I don't think I need to get to showdown. raising with tainted outs and not necessarily getting a cheaper showdown seems like spewing to me. if the turn comes unfavorably, I'd rather just fold and be done with it. if I turn an A or a Q I'd raise I guess, though people usually check mediocre hands when a card like an A slides off against a PFR.

if a heart slides off, it would depend what card if I'm raising. the only benefit to raising is to gain an extra bet when you connect with one of your 15 outs. the bad part about raising is you get check raised on the river fi they hit aces or queens up and it sucks getting 3-bet on the turn. if it's a safe card it might have merit

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
you gotta look at the board. how likely is it that it hit him? how likely is it that he has outs if it didn't? how likely is it that he has you in bad shape, like a pair and flush draw or a pair with an A or Q kicker. I'd say pretty damn likely on all accounts. the pot is also small. I think this is a pretty routine call looking to improve on the turn to get you to showdown, otherwise folding it

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. IMO your hand has very little showdon value UI. Peel one on the flop and then let it go. Also, with the infatuation that many players have with ace-junk, your ace outs could very well be tainted.

[Yort Mada]

Ok, so call the flop, if i dont improve on the turn fold to his bet. If i do improve with an A or Q i raise. This is correct?

"if a heart slides off, it would depend what card if I'm raising. the only benefit to raising is to gain an extra bet when you connect with one of your 15 outs. the bad part about raising is you get check raised on the river fi they hit aces or queens up and it sucks getting 3-bet on the turn. if it's a safe card it might have merit"

If a heart comes off i would raise. Here is my reason why. If the heart comes off that gives you 9 outs for the nuts and 6 outs to hit your top pair. If he is goin for the flush then an A and Q are no good leaving 13 outs for nut flush, top pair top kicker, or top pair 2nd best kicker.

comments?