25/50 hand reading

[theBruiser500]

limp in ep, mp raise to 225, someone calls, i call on button with 9h kh, blind calls and so does limper. flop is 4c tc kd, checked to me, i bet 800 into 1150 pot, just BB calls. he is reasonable, on tight sight. we both started with 5k.

turn is rag, check check (anyone like a bet? of what size?). river is Jo, he leads out pot. what do you put him on?

[ClaytonN]

Speculative busted flush draw

[technologic]

KJc is possible...but it looks more like a missed draw than a monster. still you can't feel too good about your kicker there against a tight opponent...

[ClaytonN]

The most important part in the puzzle (in my opinion, anyways), is villain's call of the preflop raise in the blinds. Assuming he is a tight but decent player, we ought to have a good reason to believe that he wouldn't make that kind of call in the BB with a hand that could easily be dominated, right?

This doesn't automatically put him on a hand, but I think it's a big help in narrowing his holdings.

[fnord_too]

My initial reaction at the river is AK. KQs maybe. I don't think he can check call the flop with 44, tt, or jj but maybe he can. Maybe he has AcJc.

I like a bet of 1400ish on the turn if a flush draw is a real possibility. Enough to make it a mistake to call with a draw but still giving you room to manoever.

[fnord_too]

And villain had.....

[Prevaricator]

do you usually call here preflop?

[vulture]

I think the preflop call was a big mistake.

[jumister5889]

He has a busted flush draw. If hes a tight player and checks, then that usually means he doesnt have anything. Id just call his bet though cuz maybe he was slow playing you. Still i think you ahve him beat.

[Yeti]

[ QUOTE ]
He has a busted flush draw. If hes a tight player and checks, then that usually means he doesnt have anything. Id just call his bet though cuz maybe he was slow playing you. Still i think you ahve him beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you ever raise here?

PS. I know there's an answer to this question if you think he has a stronger king, but basically, don't raise. Please.

[toke]

Did you just call 4.5BB raise cold with K9s? How many handed was this? Am I missing something here? Isn't that a horrible call?

[AceHiStation]

I'm waiting for him to say he was villain and we can all start making fun of villain for this ridiculous K9 call.

[theBruiser500]

pf, maybe calling is a mistake, if i play well postflop i don't see how it can be a big mistake though. if the open raiser is a good player it must be bad call but in this case he wasn't good, then the player that coldcalls after him was terrible. so 4 handed pot on button with K9s and a bad player in front of me who gives a ton of action.

flop, checking is an option here basically giving up on the pot or hoping to check it down, the thing is if someone has a draw they may just c/r me off my hand which would suck, and someone could easily be trapping with better hand.

on turn it doesn't seem like he has a big hand that would be tricky checking to me twice with a big hand. maybe an all in to protect vs. draw and blow him off marginally better made hand?

maybe a missed flush draw, maybe a flush draw that made a staight. or maybe KJ which is what he had. more thoughts on all streets?

[sxz18]

How much did he lead for?

[durron597]

If he's reasonable on the tight side, what do you think about him having a set (444)? Sure good players want to punish the club draw, but not every player. When you bet the flop he probably puts you on a good king and figures you'll bet the turn again. When you don't, he leads the river and hope you interpret it as an attempt to take the pot down.

I certainly don't put him on AQ. AK I expect him to reraise preflop but it's possible he doesn't want to do that out of position. I think AK usually donkbets the turn though even if they decided to check the flop. KQs and KJs are possible but he's calling a raise out of position without the suited ace.

I think his most likely holdings are 44, then KJ because of the largish pot bet. KQ comes in third because I expect him to lead less since the bet is more of a blocking bet with that hand and he doesn't want to lose too much if you pop him back.

[captZEEbo1]

fold pf.

He can have something like AcTs or QcJs, no? I have a pretty good feeling you're beat here. Although, most good players won't be drawing on this board OOP for a pot bet I assume, right? When you check turn though, he has to figure you for just an Ac or some really weak hand, because any kind of made hand would want to protect itself on such a draw heavy board. When you checked turn, you really set yourself up for calling a bet if a blank hits on the river.

I've found these high stakes games are so situational and player dependent though. That for one opponent I call as fast as possible, and other opponents I fold without blinking. Just knowing someone is tight isn't enough to know their player tendencies though. How often does this player bet pot? Is that out of the ordinary, or is the only bet he makes pot? By tight, do you just mean preflop?

[ QUOTE ]
on turn it doesn't seem like he has a big hand that would be tricky checking to me twice with a big hand. maybe an all in to protect vs. draw and blow him off marginally better made hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
Nut flush wouldn't mind checking turn, right? Because they'd want you to make another big bet to protect whatever crap hand you have, and then they can check-raise.

[sxz18]

I don't think the board has three of a suit, therefore a flush is impossible. Also, I don't think I fold K9h on the button.

As for what Villian has, I think Villian would lead with AK on the flop. There are so many hands Villian could have that I would just fold this hand and move on. K9 is too marginal to get involved with in such a big pot. AQc, KJc, KT, and KJ all have you dominated. Villian could have 44 as well. I like your flop bet but I think if it gets called, you can't put any more money in the pot.

[cero_z]

Hi Bruiser,

[ QUOTE ]
pf, maybe calling is a mistake, if i play well postflop i don't see how it can be a big mistake though. if the open raiser is a good player it must be bad call but in this case he wasn't good, then the player that coldcalls after him was terrible. so 4 handed pot on button with K9s and a bad player in front of me who gives a ton of action.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think your reasoning above is good in general, but this EXACT hand runs into so much trouble that I fold it against most pf raisers, good or not, unless we're shorthanded. Specifically, you have to fret about some of the biggest flops this hand can get, since there are very legitimate raising hands that hit the same flops harder, or be drawing extremely live. I'm thinking of QJT (where you may look at AK or a set), flops that have 2 Ks, and to a lesser extent, 2nd nut flush draws. Obviously, you'll take any of these flops, but it sucks when even near-perfect flops don't enable you to get a ton of money in with your opponent drawing mostly dead.

And yes, I realize I called a reraise from you today with 73s and now I'm telling you to tighten up pre-flop, but in my mind you had a big pair or maybe AK 100% of the time, so 73s is preferable to K9s in that spot. Plus, I'm lucky.

As for the rest of the hand, it looked good to me. On the river, you have to use the available context to guess if he'd try a big bluff here or not. Obviously, he's not betting a worse hand for value. I say usually fold against a standard decent player.

[cero_z]

[ QUOTE ]
what do you put him on? ...KJ, which is what he had


[/ QUOTE ]
--Not that. I guess he wasn't as tight or reasonable as you thought.

Also, why aren't you in Vegas right now? I understand they're holding a rather large tournament out there.

[ClaytonN]

I don't understand how a reasonable player on the "tight side" calls KJ in that spot out of position for a little under the size of the pot.

That said, it seems like either you should be folding preflop or commiting more to the hand on the turn. You can push him off of hands like KJ and KQ while not giving speculative straight and flush draws chances to outdraw you.

[9cao]

In my opinion preflop is terrible. With EP limper, Raiser, Cold-caller, you can be sure you are dominated. An argument could be made that stacks are really deep but I think that only holds weight with A9 hearts.

Given this scenario I like your turn check but it does set-up an auto-bet on the river from your opponent. Despite the fact that BB had KJ, I would assume a range of something like KQs, AJ clubs, or missed draw. Calling isn't too bad given pot and bet size, but I see this tough spot as a direct result of the pre-flop call.

[esbesb]

Busted flush draw.

I am probably wrong. I have been wrong a lot lately.

[Rococo]

[ QUOTE ]
or maybe KJ which is what he had.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes things are just as they appear to be. You may have given the opponent credit for being a better player than he actually is.

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
or maybe KJ which is what he had.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes things are just as they appear to be. You may have given the opponent credit for being a better player than he actually is.

[/ QUOTE ]

IS there something that awdul about his play with KJ here?

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

IS there something that awdul about his play with KJ here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop call out of position?

[Rococo]

If the game is really short-handed, maybe not. But he easily could have gotten pushed off his hand on the turn or the river (if a J hadn't hit). He was fortunate that Bruiser didn't fire a second barrel on the turn.

I guess my point is that I'm not sure Villain had a plan other than hoping to hit a J and/or hoping that Bruiser shut down after he called the flop.

[kagame]

would he raise you on the flop with AQc?

[theBruiser500]

a turn overbet all in is an interseting and my opinion strong move here

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
a turn overbet all in is an interseting and my opinion strong move here

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you explain your reasoning for this? Not saying I agree/disagree.... but I have a tough time understanding bets like this since we are essentially bluffing with a hand that might be best.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a turn overbet all in is an interseting and my opinion strong move here

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you explain your reasoning for this? Not saying I agree/disagree.... but I have a tough time understanding bets like this since we are essentially bluffing with a hand that might be best.

[/ QUOTE ]in no limit holdem, good players do this all the time... the idea is that he is either on a draw to beat us, or winning... we just know we want him to fold... only very strong made hands will usually call this bet, and since we are thinking TP or flush draw (very likley since most players will raise on this board with set, top two), we are looking for him to fold...
BTW if i had played this hand like bruiser, i would have folded river.

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
in no limit holdem, good players do this all the time... the idea is that he is either on a draw to beat us, or winning... we just know we want him to fold... only very strong made hands will usually call this bet, and since we are thinking TP or flush draw (very likley since most players will raise on this board with set, top two), we are looking for him to fold...
BTW if i had played this hand like bruiser, i would have folded river.

[/ QUOTE ]
This makes sense only if you are also playing strong hands this way.... otherwise a good opponent would know what you were doing and pick this off. Yes/no?

[kagame]

everyone seems to take this concept a little too far imho...

[theBruiser500]

tpir, isn't this how you would play a good hand in this situation? what other way could youe ven consider palying a good hand here? flawless explaied what i was thinking pretty much.

[technologic]

was the KJ clubs by any chance?

[technologic]

[ QUOTE ]
And yes, I realize I called a reraise from you today with 73s and now I'm telling you to tighten up pre-flop, but in my mind you had a big pair or maybe AK 100% of the time, so 73s is preferable to K9s in that spot. Plus, I'm lucky.


[/ QUOTE ]

nh.

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
tpir, isn't this how you would play a good hand in this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]
I am not so sure. Compared to you guys, I am not a no-limit player by any stretch of the imagination. After reading about pot size control on here for months and months I am so terrified of giving too much action with one pair hands that I have no clue what I would do here.

[theBruiser500]

right and goign by that checking behind is the play. basically what i'm thinking is if he has a big hand on the flop, he can't check/call my flop bet, and then check to me on the turn with all the draws out there, there is too good of a chance that i will check behind. so for that reason i really doubt he has a big hand. that means he has a made hand slightly better than mine or a draw. if i go all in he will have a very hard time calling with a made hand that isn't big, if he has a draw i protect against that too.

this is exactly how i'd play a big hand too, like a set or two pair. as i was trying to say in my last post, there is no other way to play a big hand here.

[tpir90036]

That is a good explanation (as was flawless') and what I was looking for. Thanks for taking time to respond to a dolt like myself.

-tpir

[t_petrosian]

I can't put him on a set. If he has a set, I can understand his just calling your flop bet. But no way he's going to check the turn with two clubs out there.

How come nobody has suggested KcQc? NOt hard to a tight player to call this hand out of position with all the players in the pot. Not hard to imagine his check on the flop to a possible AK. Not hard to imagine his calling the flop bet with top pair, decent kicker and flush draw. Not hard to image checking to you on the turn. When you checked the turn, not hard to imagine that he value bets the river thinking maybe YOU were on the flush draw and missed, or you have a weak king, which you do.