when to peel one with 22?

[jba]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, CO calls, SB calls, BB folds, Hero ???


it seems close re: implied odds. however if I hit on the turn I will be vulnerable to flush and straight redraws and possibly be up against a made straight.

[mtdoak]

Getting 16-1 with a backdoor straight draw and 2 outs for a set possibilities, yes, peel one. As a rule of thumb, if you can see the turn for 1 bet in a big multiway pot and have any sort of outs, you should usually see the turn.

[lightw1thoutheat]

are you usually limping 22 UTG at PP 2/4, or is this more table dependent (this one looks great)?
-light

[thirddan]

it should be standard, unless the table is particularly tight...

[Sinnister]

Odds of hitting a set are 21:1 i dont think u have the implied odds especially with redraws. In an unraised pot u probably have a few pp already out if not a slowplayed set never peel of with deuces. Hit or fold, or bluff ur ass of against a small field with the right reads.

[whodaman]

i fold

[Webster]

Hell - I'm still getting over somebody play 22 UTG. I find that insane.

[erc007]

[ QUOTE ]
I find that insane.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well...maybe not insane...but (more often than not)...not +EV...could someone please explain the rationale of limping 22 from UTG?
How do you know that &gt;4 will enter the pot...and what about the odds of a raise?

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
Hell - I'm still getting over somebody play 22 UTG. I find that insane.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Hell - I'm still getting over somebody play 22 UTG. I find that insane.

[/ QUOTE ]

Get over it. If you're playing at a typical small stakes table limp w/22 UTG.

[damaniac]

You don't really need 4 other limpers, and the hand can withstand a raise sometimes. What you need is people who play poorly postflop and are either overaggressive or at least too loose and will go to showdown with anything decent. If I get to see the flop with two players who go too far with their hands and 1 decent player, I should be able to make up the bets I need postflop, just because I'm going to get called down in 1 spot and usually more than 1 often.

What you don't want is to be isolated by a TAG with position. You are going to be folding most of the time or playing a guessing game postflop OOP as to whether he has an overpair or paired his big cards if you want to play. Neither situation looks good.

So many isolating TAGs to act after you = bad. Loose passive or aggressive players = good.

Also remember that you need to average 9x your preflop wager or whatever it is, so sometimes you earn a little less, but at a good table you can frequently expect, in the long run, to earn more, especially those times someone else makes a decent second-best hand.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Hell - I'm still getting over somebody play 22 UTG. I find that insane.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just a quick snapshot of my 22 UTG play. I've gotten it there 8 times--played 6 times. My numbers look like this:

Won 2 hands for $29 and $54 respectively.

I lost the other 4: 3 times I lost $4. Once I lost $6.

This isn't to say this is a good sized sample. What I do think is very clear is how easy this hand is to play.

(I'm a bit shocked I've only been in this situation 8 times in 50k hands? This is 2/4 and up.)

[pleyya]

Unless the table is very loose and preferably passive i fold prelop. Pretty much the same as i play Axs.

[brettbrettr]

22 is a better hand in this spot than Ax. Yes, of course, loose and passive apply, but if you practive decent game selection most of your tables should be loose and passive.

[toss]

You're getting 16:1 with 2 outs to the set, generously 1.5 outs to the backdoor straight draw, and virtually no outs to the backdoor flush since a one card 2-high flush will rarely be good. The call is good with only 2.5 outs. So the flop call is good.

[jba]

I don't always play 22 UTG -- I'd say 75% of the time, depending on the table. If you're playing at a table with 30 VPIP/2 PFR I think it's crazy not to. it's pretty much the easiest hand to play postflop. If it's often going 3 bets pre flop or the table is crazy tight (&lt;20vpip), I'll drop it sure.


FWIW, I took this one down unimproved.

(ok, actually I split with MP3)

[Aces McGee]

How about betting the flop if you're going to continue?

-McGee

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
How about betting the flop if you're going to continue?

[/ QUOTE ]
Getting raised would suck - and it's likely to happen. This is either a check/fold or a check/call. I don't see how betting into the PFR could be a +EV option.

[Aces McGee]

I don't think getting raised sucks that bad, if he'll raise with overs as well as big pairs.

I will concede, however, that perhaps we have too many opponents for this to be the right play. Maybe they won't all fold facing two, and maybe the pot is big enough that we're justified in taking one off and therefore want to do so as cheaply as possible.

But I think in a lot of situations, we can use our position relative to the preflop raiser to our advantage with a small pair on a ragged flop.

-McGee

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
But I think in a lot of situations, we can use our position relative to the preflop raiser to our advantage with a small pair on a ragged flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with your concept but it doesn't apply here for two reasons:

(A) I don't consider this a raggedy flop against 5 opponents at the Party 2/4. There are flush and straight draws out there that are not going to fold on the flop.

(B) We need to be like 99% sure that MP is aggressive enough to raise again on this flop - there's no read to that affect.

I like your concept. I think it works best in 3-way (maybe 4-way) pots where you don't have so many players that you need the original PFR to knock out and play against his likely overs. I also think you need a decent read on said PFR that he's (a) agressive enough to raise again and (b) loose enough that he'll be doing it only with over-cards.

[Pedigree]

I don't think he has 2.5 outs. This is a particularly weak backdoor one card straight draw that is worth about .5 outs. And somebody could hit a straight or, at the worst, have a redraw if you hit the set. So the 2s are worth less than 2 outs as well.

You should fold IMO.