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Mason Malmuth
01-12-2003, 10:23 PM
I thought that it would be fun to see if anyone wanted to comment on this essay which appears in my book Poker Essays, Volume II.

Best wishes,
Mason

Why Do Poker Games Remain Good?


In all my years of playing poker, one thing has always puzzled me: Why, in general, do poker games remain good? That is, if you play extremely well, you should expect to do extremely well.

Playing well, of course, doesn’t just happen. It seems to be a given that there are only a small number of very good players. And as the years go by this number doesn’t seem to increase very much. Which is odd, because there are lots of new players entering poker all the time. Many of them try very hard to become top players, yet they just never seem to do it. Why is this? What is it about poker that makes it so difficult for most people to become proficient at it? And why are a few people able to become top poker players quickly while so many others struggle for years and never get much above what I would refer to as marginal at best.

I have my theories on this. And what’s interesting is that each game seems to be different — with its own set of traps most players are unable to avoid. Just look at seven-card stud, Texas hold’em, and Omaha eight-or-better.

Game No. 1: Seven-card stud. In stud, it’s easiest to see why most people have trouble. The reason: Analyzing stud hands can be very complex. In seven-card stud you must take into account the upcards.

Here’s a simple example. If on third street you have two jacks and all other upcards are lower than a jack, there is a good chance you have the best hand. However, if both other jacks are out but there are still no aces, kings, or queens your hand has diminished in value. In fact, it may have gone from the best hand to one that you cannot play for profit. (Remember, stud is a seven card game, and when your hand is dead it is much harder for it to finish as the best hand even if it started as the best hand.)

Now let’s complicate it: Suppose you raise with a pair of kings and someone with an ace reraises. Should you throw your hand away? Well, if he has aces you should certainly fold. But let’s suppose you know that this player will raise you every time that he has a three flush in this spot. Now your choice is not so clear. You must look around the table and try to decide how likely he is to have a three flush. Obviously if none of his suit are out this hand becomes highly possible. If several of his suit are out, you can rule out the three flush. (However, this doesn’t mean he has to have the aces. He might have a completely different hand.)

This type of analysis can quickly get very complex, especially on the later streets. For example, when an opponent shows unexpected strength is it because he made two pair or perhaps picked up a flush draw. Remembering the cards that are out can give you valuable clues. You won’t always be correct, but clearly those of you who are able to do this well — and there are very few people like this — are the ones who excel at seven-card stud.

Game No. 2: Texas hold’em. Hold’em works very differently. The reason hold’em games remain good, I believe, is that correct hold’em strategy is often very counterintuitive. It seems as if you bet some of your weaker hands and constantly check your better hands, and the best players seem to make these kinds of plays in situations that just don’t make any sense.

Consider this, for example: We all know that hold’em is a highly positional game. This is because all players, with the exception of the blinds on the first round, always act in the same order. Further, we all know that the later your position the more hands you can play and up front you’d better be very selective with those hands that you do come in with.

Now I agree that this is very good advice for many hold’em games. But in extremely loose hold’em games I routinely violate it. This is because I know that my call will attract other players. In fact, in some hold’em games I will play more hands up front than I will in middle position. Yet when you first think about this it just doesn’t make any sense.

Let’s take a closer look at this. In a very loose hold’em game, I will play a small pair if I am first one in up front. (Some of you refer to these kinds of games as “no-fold’em-hold’em.”) Why? Because I am sure that my early position call will attract other players — which will assure me of the multi-way action this hand needs to be profitable.

If I hold this same hand from a middle position and I am first one in in the exact same game — perhaps a couple of players are walking — I will now throw the small pair away. I do this because I cannot be sure that I will be able to get enough players to make the hand profitable.

Clearly this is correct. Yet it doesn’t seem to make any sense. I am violating one of the basic rules of poker. I am playing more hands in an early position than I am in a later position. Yet hold’em is like this.

This idea of counterintuitive strategies is one of the keys to hold’em success. All the top players will sometimes play hands that appear to be completely wrong to most of the other players. The other players say that this player is just plain lucky. They’ll never understand that his understanding is far superior to theirs.

Game No. 3: Omaha-eight-or-better. In some of my previous writings I have pointed out that even though some skill is required to become a top player, it is not as strategically difficult as hold’em and not nearly as mathematically complex as seven-card stud. Yet these games always seem to remain quite good. Why is that?

To me the reason is creativity. It just seems that Omaha eight-or-better brings out a level of creativity in many players that the other games don’t. There is something about four cards that is the rough equivalent of six hold’em hands. When this is the case, if you look hard enough, you can often find a creative reason to play the hand in Omaha. Of course this shouldn’t be the case, but my experience is simply that most Omaha eight-or-better players play too loose. Thus the games are good and I suspect they will always stay that way. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

BADDAWG
01-12-2003, 11:03 PM
very well done mason,my only source of income is playing online and live, and when i first started (7 yrs ago) i only played stud, i do agree stud is very complex, then i learned holdem, then omaha hilo why? because all the pros told me if i want to continue to do this for a living i really should learn to play all these games. well they were correct, currently holdem is my best game i make a ton of money from this game then stud then omaha hilo.
see you at the tables
Baddawg

Glenn
01-12-2003, 11:14 PM
Hi Mason,

I agree with most of your article. However, I think an important point you did not explicitly state is that most people just aren't very smart, but they think they are. Everyone who plays poker including myself, yourself, Doyle Brunson, Timmy Tourist, and Jonny Fish think they know something that other people don't, or that they have some skill that other people don't. Fortunately, most of the these "special" ideas are quite wrong, and in fact most people don't know what they are talking about. But, since everyone thinks he is smarter than everyone else (which is of course impossible), they will often refuse to accept the correct ideas proposed by others. And even when it is not about ego, most people just aren't willing to think enough or they lack the skills to understand why an idea relating to poker is correct or incorrect. A perfect example of this is people who can't beat loose/passive games because "all of the fish draw out on me", etc... But the same people are quick to say how easily they beat higher limit games. They lack the most fundamental concept in poker, that is, put money in when you have the best of it, yet their ego tells them that all of the nonsense ideas they have contrived for higher limit play are correct. But they are usually not correct since they are not based on the correct fundamentals. So both their ego and their pure inability to grasp what they are trying to accomplish make them lose.

Also, I kind of disagree with your statements about Omaha.

"In some of my previous writings I have pointed out that even though some skill is required to become a top player, it is not as strategically difficult as hold-em and not nearly as mathematically complex as seven-card stud."

This is 100% right for normal players who just want to beat the game, but excellent/world class players take it to a whole different level. Hand reading, isolation, and estimating effective outs accurately become essential. These things are MUCH easier to do in holdem, IMO. Omaha8 is easy to play well since you can pass up almost all marginal situations and still beat most games. And you correctly pointed out that most players lose by trying to get creative. However, unless the top players are just incredibly lucky, there does seem to be a correct way to get creative.

Zeno
01-13-2003, 12:50 AM
Mason,

Some quick comments based on my own "rules of thumb" that I have development on my own that mesh with your own observations of poker games.

For 7-card Stud: Eight hours of stud = 12 hours of hold'em in expenditure of mental energy.

For Omaha-eight-or-better: If you start looking for a reason to stay in a hand, then your cards should be in the muck.

I also tend to agree with some of Glenn's comments about the Omaha 8 game. But I have not played enough recently or at any limit higher than 10-20, so I think others are more qualified to evaluated his statements.

I have no comments on the hold'em game. Thank you for posting the essay, I enjoyed it.

-Zeno

Vehn
01-13-2003, 01:28 AM
Uh I think the #1 reason games tend to stay good is because most players are addicted to gambling.

Another reason is because while many poker players enjoy playing poker, they aren't "inclined" for it. They aren't naturally aggressive and competitive enough to win, no matter how many books they read. This particularly applies to hold'em by the way IMO. The value of aggression is higher than any other game I think.

poppel
01-13-2003, 01:36 AM
Wow, I read the part about omaha, and holdem, and directly relate them to my game. I will fold what is considered rags(22) in the early position, and will play them in the later positions. This Essay was incredibly educational. Mason you just sold three more books. I don't currently own any of your essay books. Once I finish the last set of books I purchased, I will be buying yours.

Clarkmeister
01-13-2003, 03:16 AM
I agree with this entirely. Around here we sometimes lose sight of the fact that many people don't play for the same reasons we do. A large number of people play to have fun, to socialize, to gamble....whatever. They have zero desire to be 'good' at poker. And there is an endless supply of those people. If there wasn't, then the craps tables and slot machines wouldn't be full every weekend.

Mason Malmuth
01-13-2003, 04:18 AM
Hi Dynasty:

Continuing on this idea, Alan Schoonmaker in his book The Psychology of Poker points out that tight and aggressive is learned behavior as opposed to natural behavior.

Best wishes,
Mason

Mason Malmuth
01-13-2003, 04:21 AM
Hi Ricky:

If this sells books this easily, may over time I'll post a few more of these.

Best wishes,
Mason

PS: How's Lucy?

Ed Miller
01-13-2003, 06:50 AM
I think that the most unnatural thing about "tight and aggressive" for many people is the idea that it is sometimes correct to raise when you know you don't have the best hand. I get a significant number of comments after I show down a hand where I did this like, "how could you have thought your hand was good?"

poppel
01-13-2003, 11:07 AM
I have found lately that essays tend to hold the finer details of poker. I have read a few books, and now I am finding them repeatative, however it does force the point. I am still aware the finer points(once the basics, then advanced common points are mastered) make average players good/great players.

Lucy is getting old.... She is still always getting yelled at lol

ChipWrecked
01-13-2003, 03:33 PM
I wouldn't presume to be expert enough at poker to critique these essays (tho I like the hold'em part, my club is loose-passive and I'll experiment with that idea) but I know enough about human nature to be sure of this: *having* information and *applying* said information are two different things. Everyone knows that to stay thin one eats less and exercises more. Yet how many fat people do we see every day? How many lousy drivers do you encounter out there every day; yet who will tell you he or she is a sub-par driver?

This is my learning philosophy in poker: I'm not trying to take in too much information at once, but I try to *execute* that which I do learn. So far so good. Thanks for your books Mason, David, and Lee Jones.

-Chip