Middle pair

[TheWorstPlayer]

Standard? No read on SB but MP2 is the worst player in the world. He/she has already busted out twice and has made plays such as calling down a preflop 3 better with K7o unimproved after calling 3 cold with it preflop.

Ultimate Bet 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB (poster) checks.

Flop: (3 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, SB calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>

[istewart]

I'd raise preflop. Where is the BB?

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise preflop. Where is the BB?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the BB just left so there was no BB? Does that make sense? Or else the converter screwed up. Not sure. And you are really raising this preflop with no limpers and lots of loose guys behind you? If so, could you explain the rationale?

[Fantam]

When SB calls your flop raise, I suspect that he is more likely to be on a flush or straight draw, than having top pair.

And when he checks the turn, when another A appears, that confirms my previous thoughts.

I very much doubt that SB has anything when he checks the river, and I fully expect that you have the best hand.

That is why I am wondering why you stopped your hand history here? I think your play made sense and seemed to be correct so far.

If MP2 beat you with some strange holding, thats just poker, and you cant predict bad beats from players with random cards.

[Buckmulligan]

I raise this preflop first of all. Second of all, I'm not sure about the flop raise; it's tough. I also wouldn't ever value bet the river with just one ace on board, as someone could be taking a passive line with a weaker ace, but after not being checkraised on the turn, I think our pair is best. Still though, I don't think I bet that river. Villain probably was on a draw , and he's not paying you with a worse hand. It's close though.

[Buckmulligan]

[ QUOTE ]
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I'd raise preflop. Where is the BB?


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I think the BB just left so there was no BB? Does that make sense? Or else the converter screwed up. Not sure. And you are really raising this preflop with no limpers and lots of loose guys behind you? If so, could you explain the rationale?

[/ QUOTE ]

Qjs is much stronger than people give it credit for in these low limit games. On one hand, it derives strength from the fact that it plays well in large pots, and at a nice table with a lot of cold callers, i'll sometimes raise Qjs preflop from UTG. Also, it's a hand that is already pretty good heads up, and becomes even stronger with the added fold equity that factors in on missed flops when we choose to raise it preflop.
Folding this hand preflop is a bad idea. Limping is also bad in this position because we don't want to end up heads up with a later position limper that won't fold to the strength we exhibit when we both miss the flop.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I'm sure the preflop aspect is quite boring, but since you guys are saying it's standard to raise this preflop can you just explain a little more about why this is a good idea? Do you think I have an equity edge over the random hands that are going to come along behind me? Won't it be hard to play out of position? When are you following through on a completely whiffed flop? I feel like 90% of hands are going to showdown on this table, so I might as well see a cheap flop unless I have a clear equity advantage (say, with a big ace or a big pocket pair.) Is that incorrect?

[TheWorstPlayer]

OK, we cross-posted. Your post helps, thanks. Anyone else who wants to chime in is more than welcome, of course. Thanks.

[istewart]

A few reasons, IMHO:

1) Chance still exists that you buy the button, and/or steal the blinds. If you don't, flop action will sometimes go bet-fold.

2) It's 8-handed, you're in MP1, so you're essentially in MP3 with QJs, which is in autoraise territory. The presence of the calling station behind you doesn't make it fun to play on the flop, but your hand is tons better than his.

3) Open-limping here decreases potential flop fold equity, IMHO, and sets yourself up for a potential isolation raise.

[Fantam]

You dont have to raise first in the pot middle position with QJ(s).

This hand plays well in a multi-way pot. So unless you think that your raise is likely to drive most, if not all of the other players out of the pot, you are fine to just limp in.

After all if you end up playing this hand heads up against someone with say Ax or Kx, you are probably the underdog to win.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Is this a very marginal value bet on the river?

Ultimate Bet 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB (poster) checks.

Flop: (3 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, SB calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 folds, SB calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has Jd 6s (two pair, aces and jacks).
Hero has Qh Jh (two pair, aces and jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins 9.50 BB. </font>

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this a very marginal value bet on the river?


[/ QUOTE ]

No. The river completed no draws, and he could be calling down to the river with a PP (like some always do), a weaker J, possibly a 9, and if he's fishy, maybe KQ/Kx

[Iq75]

I'm not so sure about that flop raise. I love playing whit guys that play virtually every hand, but in those cases i allways try to keep in mind that i have to also beat the solid players on the same hand.

SB is out of positition but still bets the flop. IF MP2 is a calling station and SB realises it, then SB is not likely to bluff and thus is bound to have something (an A, flushdraw or OESD?). there are 2 flush cards, 2-3 straight cards and an A on board and MP2 is still to act (and he prob. plays every A rag). If you are ahead 20 % of the time, half the deck can cribble you, not to mention that half of your outs complete flush/straight draw. The pot is tiny (on the flop the pot is 4:1 to you) so i would prob. fold this one.

Edit: After reading the other responses i was kind of suprised whit the amount of discussion of preflop. On that matter i have no opinion, cause i'm still just trying to get things together postflop, but do you think that folding this one is weak on the flop?

[davelin]

This hand is too good to open-limp here IMO. I likey post-flop.

[Quercus]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand is too good to open-limp here IMO. I likey post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]