When you do not want overcalls

[MrEngenic]

SSH concept I haven't used:
When was the last time you raised the river with a marginal hand because you believed you might have had the bettor beaten, but you wanted someone behind to fold a better hand?
I don't think I've ever done this. It's been applied to me though. I once folded a straight because a set in front of me raised on a flush board.

[Greg J]

This is not something you should do often. You should try it only if you have one HELL of a read on yr opponent and they pot is huge. Even then, it's risky.

[jba]

I mentioned this concept in this post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=2586072 &Forum=,,,All_Forums,,,&Words=&Searchpage=3&Limit= 25&Main=2583638&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=278 38&daterange=1&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&olde rtype=&bodyprev=1#Post2586072). I thought a river fold was in order, but I argued that a raise is better than a call for these reasons.

I should add that few if any agreed with me.

[moot]

I can't think of a single time I've ever applied it.

If the pot's worth it and you think you can beat the bettor and you also think that others behind you might fold a better hand than you for 2 bets.

Problem is, most bad players who have gone that far with their hand are bad enough that they are gonna call two more big bets on the end. So yes, you need some very strong reads and the pot has to be worth the risk (though the bigger the pot, the more likely your oppoents are going to call two bets).

Sometimes, if there's a straight on the board and one of your opponent bets, it might be worth a raise if you have a donk behind you who won't notice the straight (so you're only splitting with one person). Though if someone can make a higher straight with a hole card... you're really gonna be hurting.

But if the board is AKQJT and there's no flush, you should definitely raise and hope someone is dumb.

[dozer]

I have tried this concept only once when I was playing .50 1.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds.

Turn: (6.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks.

River: (6.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, CO calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

My thinking was that the CO had a Ace or even weaker like K high and was trying to buy the pot on the river. Co was a aggressive player so his turn check meant he has a weak hand and I put him on overcards. I didn't want a overcaller here and I was pretty confident my Ace was good on this board against the CO, worst case would be that Co had a Ace also and we chop if he calls.

So my raise here was to make UTG+1 fold because I do not want to be overcalled on this board.

I remember this hand well because I have posted it before on a different forum.


Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Qh Ac (two pair, sixes and threes).
CO has 2h 2c (two pair, sixes and threes).
Outcome: Hero wins 10.75 BB. </font>

[awval999]

He did not call your river raise with 3-Two Pair with his pair of deuces being counterfeited.

I /images/graemlins/heart.gif Party Poker.

[Hojglad]

deleted

[MrEngenic]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Huh, this is NOT a situation where you do not want overcalls. You DO want UTG+1 to overcall here. The only hands that beat you are JJ-AA, a 3 or a 6. I don't really think UTG+1 has JJ-AA or a 3, you would have heard from him at some point. I don't think those hands fold for two bets either, a 3 or a 6 would certainly not.
It is a typical example of where you DO want overcalls. CO could be bluffing but if he does, he's not gonna pay you off but he will raise with a 6. UTG+1 will call with many hands that you beat for one BB, he's not gonna fold a hand that beats you for two.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
The only hands that beat you are JJ-AA, a 3 or a 6. I don't really think UTG+1 has JJ-AA or a 3, you would have heard from him at some point. I don't think those hands fold for two bets either, a 3 or a 6 would certainly not.


[/ QUOTE ]

you sure you don't want the donk behind you to fold 44 or 55?? they beat you as does 77-99 to your list, and you sure wouldn't mind folding an Aout either

[dozer]

you are wrong, you never want someone to overcall if the only hand you have is ACE high.

many hands beat me here beside JJ-AA, how about 44-AA all have me beat here.

Getting someone to fold another ace is beneficial to you and give you a bigger share of the pot also.

[sholvar]

I don't think that the topicargument should be the only reason to raise. If the situation is close between call and raise, this could make a raise more profitable, but if your only reason for raise is to confrontate the players behind you with 2 bets cold, it is not often a good desicion to raise. Even on .5/1 most people who call your raise cold have hands as good as yours or better...
and if you think about kicking cold callers, you must everytime think on 3 very important things:
-how large is the pot? in small pots this play is too risky
-how many players are behind you? more then 2 players behind you include most times one or more better hands.
- how much hands of the opponents behind you can beat you and will propably not fold, if someone holds it?

that's what I think @this topic...

/images/graemlins/spade.gif
shol

[MrEngenic]

Duh, I must be on drugs or something. I thought you had AT with top pair. Sorry for rambling

[TheDudeChad]

I've tried to do this once, but failed.

I don't have the HH, but there was a complete maniac at the table. A solid player raised UTG, maniac 3 bet, I cold called with JJ in the BB to see if solid player capped, he did. Solid player bet flop, maniac raised, I cold call again, and solid player just calls. I put him on AA or KK. We both called a bet from the maniac on the turn. On the river, the pot was quite large, so I decided to check to the maniac, who was last to act, then check raise to blast the solid player between us out of the pot. Unfortunately, the maniac had caught a random two pair, but I did successfully fold the solid player, although I'm not sure if he had an overpair or just overcards. Btw, the board was all undercards. I think using maniacs to manipulate river betting can be effective sometimes.