View Full Version : How do you interpret this?
Newt_Buggs
06-13-2005, 04:04 PM
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
UTG (t446)
Button (t570)
SB (t2354)
Hero (t6630)
Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t6630 (All-In)</font>, SB calls t2054 (All-In).
SB has 2d Ac (two pair, eights and twos).
Hero has 9d Qh (one pair, eights).
PP $50
I knew that the SB was a loose player
I've been running into a lot of situations lately where I'm chip leader on the bubble and after bullying a lot someone will make an extreemly -EV call for both of us.
When you are put in a situation like the one above, and you know that the SB is loose are you pushing any two regardless? When something like this happens do you just shrug and ignore it if he wants to make a call that's bad for both of you, or is this a sign that I should have backed off and just checked?
Shilly
06-13-2005, 04:06 PM
I make the same move 95% of the time, and 100% of the time with Q9.
zambonidrivr
06-13-2005, 04:31 PM
i back off and check. limps so late freak me out. does anyone else push q9? let me ask differently. does any winning player push q9 here? i would rather push any ace with 3 to act, than make this play
Eevee
06-13-2005, 04:37 PM
If you know SB is a loose player, I also make this move 100% of the time. Most likely commpletion does not = monster. I think even loose players want to get in money. Exploit the bubble. I woulda liked to have 23s than Q9o though. /images/graemlins/wink.gif
-EV
Freudian
06-13-2005, 04:49 PM
If you have been pushing a lot I would check here and see what the flop brings. Even loose players are not totally without ability to notice patterns and this could be a trapping play.
Just because you are the big stack you don't have to win each pot.
freemoney
06-13-2005, 05:16 PM
IF YOU DONT PUSH Q9 HERE QUIT.
curtains
06-13-2005, 05:18 PM
You must push here, almost no reads can change this play. Although I warn you that if I limp here from the SB I have AA or KK exactly /images/graemlins/smile.gif
lastchance
06-13-2005, 05:29 PM
Yeah, easy push. SB limps are fishy. Attack them.
ChuckyB
06-13-2005, 06:01 PM
Seriously?
Push against pot odds and go from a dominating chip position to being in second. Wow.
This a position to check and see the flop. Q9 is good, but not that good. Why be in such a hurry?
ChuckyB
06-13-2005, 06:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Although I warn you that if I limp here from the SB I have AA or KK exactly /images/graemlins/smile.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't that reason enough to see a flop? This is hardly an automatic push. I like the chip lead. I'd rather not pee it away and be in second.
freemoney
06-13-2005, 06:08 PM
alright well not pushing here is bad.
applejuicekid
06-13-2005, 06:10 PM
freemoney is correct.
applejuicekid
06-13-2005, 06:16 PM
Not pushing here is terrible.
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't that reason enough to see a flop?
[/ QUOTE ]
What are you saying here?
If your up against KK or AA your gonna lose even if you hit the flop. Are you only going to continue if you hit two pair or better?
Q9s is going to be ahead here most of the times. The SB will probably complete here with 74s, you can't let him do this! This is also a situation where even a terrible player will see that calling with a hand like AJ is -EV. Don't let the results distort your thinking.
[ QUOTE ]
I like the chip lead.
[/ QUOTE ]
Me too, that's why you must push to keep/increase it.
[ QUOTE ]
I'd rather not pee it away and be in second.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not pushing is a good way to pee it away.
This is a push with any two. You should be so lucky to be able to do it with a bonafide hand like Q9s.
Whoever is saying check, please look at the goddamn stack sizes before answering. Only the dumbest people in the world (like SB) call hero's push. I can't believe there is debate about this. Loosey's completion doesn't mean a monster necessarily, and it's silly to worry about it.
WarDekar
06-13-2005, 06:42 PM
YES! The other 2 stacks both have <2BB.
Therefore, the SB should fold unless he has AA or KK, maybe QQ, but still he should be folding here every time basically.
Plus, if you lose the hand you will still have a nice stack, and will easily reach 3rd and most likely easily hit 2nd.
If you win the hand when he calls, you have a dominating position for 1st.
This is a clear push every single time, and that dude was an idiot for calling, I wish he would've gotten busted...
Bigwig
06-13-2005, 06:44 PM
No, you should still push even if you think the likelihood of a call is much higher than it should be. The reason is basic poker theory. Your opponent is making a mistake, therefore you gain.
microbet
06-13-2005, 06:50 PM
Ok, this is a tangent because you hand here is worth a push regardless of read on SB, but...
The last couple days I have tried to really step up my trying to push the table around with a big stack. I'm not just talking about doing it no matter what, but raising the healthy stacks after the short stacks have folded. The only stepping up that I have done is that I have relaxed my inhibition to doing it with crappy cards like 2 out of 3 times.
In the $33s and the $55s I am getting called a lot by mediocre hands when all but solid hands (not necessarily monsters) should fold even if they saw my cards.
applejuicekid
06-13-2005, 06:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Your opponent is making a mistake, therefore you gain.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is this true?
How is the BB gaining anything from a call by the SH?
Isn't this -EV for both parties?
curtains
06-13-2005, 07:08 PM
You theoretically gain if your opponent will make this mistake too if you were one of the small stacks. Of course in this specific case you lose, although not very much. You are basically risking 5 bucks whereas your opponent is risking 50 (huge oversimplification).
Bigwig
06-13-2005, 07:18 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your opponent is making a mistake, therefore you gain.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is this true?
How is the BB gaining anything from a call by the SH?
Isn't this -EV for both parties?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, it's -EV for both. But it's more -EV for the caller. Therefore, he should fold just about every hand, and that makes it an easy push.
microbet
06-13-2005, 07:22 PM
Forget for a second that he limped and that has any reflection on his cards. Now there is really no range that he can have where it is -$EV for you to push. If he is too tight, he will fold too much and if he is too loose, he is too likely to call with a hand you are a favorite over.
When you should have a lot of FE, but crappy cards you have to worry about your opponent having too loose of a calling range.
gumpzilla
06-13-2005, 07:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
No, you should still push even if you think the likelihood of a call is much higher than it should be. The reason is basic poker theory. Your opponent is making a mistake, therefore you gain.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is dangerous thinking. The real winners in this kind of situation are the other two stacks, unless you have a monster. It's not as simple as "opponent makes a mistake, I benefit." With Q9, you really, really don't want to get called, and probably shouldn't push if you expect to be called. Whether you can reasonably make an assessment of the likelihood of that is another question.
I am a new guy here, so take this for what it is worth, but your "all in" would signify weakness to me if I were a looser player. You are the big stack trying to steal my SB and completion. I would look at my A2o and decide whether it was worth a coinflip. I would read you as having a Kx, Qx or possibly one of my bullets, and then look at my additional possibility of a straight. It might lead a looser player to believe it was worth a coinflip.
Raise 1200 instead of all in after I complete with a A2o and I would think you have the cards and are trying to lure me into betting more. With an A2o, I would fold with a 1200 raise.
It is the right play on your part, but an all in signifies a weaker hand in this situation and a good time for a loose player to go for the coin flip. A measured raise would be a warning of a strong pair to me and make the looser player question his cards.
[ QUOTE ]
I am a new guy here, so take this for what it is worth, but your "all in" would signify weakness to me if I were a looser player. You are the big stack trying to steal my SB and completion. I would look at my A2o and decide whether it was worth a coinflip. I would read you as having a Kx, Qx or possibly one of my bullets, and then look at my additional possibility of a straight. It might lead a looser player to believe it was worth a coinflip.
Raise 1200 instead of all in after I complete with a A2o and I would think you have the cards and are trying to lure me into betting more. With an A2o, I would fold with a 1200 raise.
It is the right play on your part, but an all in signifies a weaker hand in this situation and a good time for a loose player to go for the coin flip. A measured raise would be a warning of a strong pair to me and make the looser player question his cards.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you think your stack is worth a coinflip, you have a lot to learn. I'd seriously consider studying this forum if I were you.
2callzU
06-13-2005, 08:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I knew that the SB was a loose player
[/ QUOTE ] If you knew that the SB was a loose player and that he might have crap, you also need to consider that he might call you with crap. If you could care less if you lose that much of your chip stack, then by all means make this play. But why not just see a flop, make a value bet, and then take his money. You're risking less chips and there is probably a better chance he will fold after seeing the flop. This scenario is where poker instinct comes in. You said you were bullying alot so you should feel out when this type of player is fed up and will call you with rags. This isn't the populer opinion obviously, but mine nonetheless. TY.
ChuckyB
06-13-2005, 08:48 PM
Q9 off-suit...though that probably doesn't change your thinking.
ChuckyB
06-13-2005, 08:52 PM
Basic poker theory says he's making a mistake if he does something different than he would if he could see my hole cards.
9d Qh 42.55
2s Ac 57.02
Getting all-in as almost a 3:2 seems like the right play.
curtains
06-13-2005, 08:54 PM
No if he knew your hole cards getting allin is a terrible play due to the payout structure of sit and gos.
The idea of doing anything besides pushing makes my brain hurt. But if the SB seems to be enough of an idiot to decide to "trap" here with some trash like Ace-high...well then I still push, because his loose ass is completing with 96o 5 times times for every A4s trap.
I guess I might check if I thought SB was a psycho who would spite-call with any 2.
[ QUOTE ]
Basic poker theory says he's making a mistake if he does something different than he would if he could see my hole cards.
9d Qh 42.55
2s Ac 57.02
Getting all-in as almost a 3:2 seems like the right play.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, "seems" is the key word here.
[ QUOTE ]
If you think your stack is worth a coinflip, you have a lot to learn. I'd seriously consider studying this forum if I were you.
[/ QUOTE ] I was looking at this from the perspective of the loose SB, not how I would play. Fortunately, everyone doesn't play by the book. In this instance, a loose SB apparently interpreted this as a weak all in and called. Bad play by the SB, but very common and, in this case, he got lucky with his gamble.
I don't like to gamble.
Bullying with all ins is going to get some calls from looser players. My only suggestion is to mix up betting so it doesn't look like bullying with a weak hand. The correct call is still a raise; just give the SB something to think about instead of the big stack bully so common these days.
lastchance
06-13-2005, 09:38 PM
Gambling means you don't get blinded out. Gambing is much more +EV than blinding out.
This is a spot when opponent folds a lot of the time. If this is the first time you've done this against a loose SB, this is an easy push. They're only calling you if they think you're stealing, and they can't "know" that yet.
At the same time, checking against bad opponents after pushing around the table isn't horrible (you're getting called too much), but this is a spot when most n00bs know bubbling out here sucks.
So I push, but if you have a maniacal image, I suppose checking isn't horrible.
vinyard
06-13-2005, 09:52 PM
Assuming you were dumb enough to complete from the SB what woould you call OP's push with? For me I think the range is AA and KK but that doesn't seem right. Anybody else have suggestions?
Sorry to derail the thread I just find second stack bubble play like this pretty interesing/frustrating.
gumpzilla
06-13-2005, 09:58 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming you were dumb enough to complete from the SB what woould you call OP's push with? For me I think the range is AA and KK but that doesn't seem right.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're going to get pretty strange results if you assume that the limp is a dumb move but that he's then going to play "intelligently" afterwards. What people will call with is going to be pretty wide, but if you think that you're up against a donkish opponent you need to be ready for a pretty broad calling range.
vinyard
06-13-2005, 10:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You're going to get pretty strange results if you assume that the limp is a dumb move but that he's then going to play "intelligently" afterwards.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep. I expect to see a lot of answers to the effect of "I never complete there but if I had" or "I only limp/mi-raise here with AA-QQ" etc and then a bunch of answers from people who think that pushing back with Q9 was a "wrong" play for OP.
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.