hand against bdk3clash

[turnipmonster]

don't have the HH so this is from memory, bdk3clash (very solid 2+2er) and I are playing some of the old 5/10 6 max. bdk tends to fastplay his hands and doesn't donk around and run big bluffs and stuff just because it's me.

I thought I made 2 mistakes in this hand, but I thought about it and now I think I made only one. let me know what you think.

I openraise in MP with KK, folded to bdk in the BB who 3 bets from the BB.

flop is Q J T rainbow. bdk bets, I call.

turn is brick, bdk bets I call.

river is a 9, bdk bets. what's your play?

say you decide to raise, now bdk 3 bets. what now, tough guy?

--turnipmonster

[Stefan_K]

I would have caped preflop. raised the flop, raised the turn and raised the river. but if the hand was plaed like this i would have called the threebet

[TylerD]

I think you should have raised the turn.

On the river I would raise and call a 3-bet.

[ipp147]

did you cap preflop?

I raise the turn and puke if he 3 bets and probably call down knowing I am beat against AK cos I do that and its a leak - you might be better than me and fold.

If he just calls the turn raise and checks the river I bet. If he just calls the turn raise and bets the river I call.

If it played out like you played it out I would not raise the river. I can't see him calling without a K and he will reraise with his AK.

[Anders_G]

cap pre-flop. raise flop, turn and river. given the way the hand was played i would call the 3-bet and not cap.

EDIT: i would prolly cap against a lag-fish but given the fact that villain is a thinking creature who would not 3-bet hands like sets and two-pairs i would call the 3-bet.

[ALL1N]

Gotta raise the flop. Call a river 3-bet, since he 3-bets any king here (you can't have AK).

[ALL1N]

[ QUOTE ]
you might be better than me and fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding to a turn 3-bet would be a monstrosity of an error.

[Anders_G]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you might be better than me and fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding to a turn 3-bet would be a monstrosity of an error.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. You're not drawing dead against any hand, and even if he does have AK which he will some of the time you still have 3 outs to a split making this an obvious calldown.

[turnipmonster]

what hands am I beating that he bets on the turn? fwiw I don't think he's 3 betting me w/AQ and friends.

--turnipmonster

[afk]

[ QUOTE ]
what hands am I beating that he bets on the turn? fwiw I don't think he's 3 betting me w/AQ and friends.

--turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]

You know him much better than I, but a 2+2 open raising from MP means a wide, wide range of hands. He wouldn't 3bet w/AQ in this spot? But even given that, you're still behind most of his likely hands.

[Derek in NYC]

[ QUOTE ]
raised the turn and raised the river. but if the hand was plaed like this i would have called the threebet

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty aggressive against a thinking player.

[afk]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have caped preflop. raised the flop, raised the turn and raised the river. but if the hand was plaed like this i would have called the threebet

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands do you put villain on, and how many are you ahead of?

[Derek in NYC]

I personally would raise the flop to define my hand. If it gets three-bet to me by a known, thinking player, I call down and bet into any weakness.

[turnipmonster]

I'm missing why defining my hand is a good thing.

[TylerD]

I think AQ, AJ, 99 is a possible 3 bet against a known, aggressive 2+2er who opened from MP. Since you didn't raise the flop I think its possible he'd continue to bet all of those hands on the turn. Of course if he does have a set or even AK you still have outs.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
This is chip spewing against a thinking player.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP! it seems like many posters seem to think otherwise, but believe it or not I'm not trying to contribute to bdk's trust fund this hand.

[sfer]

Once I get to the river like you, I'm not raising when he bets.

Assuming you've been playing seriously and he knows this, I think it's fine.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I personally would raise the flop to define my hand. If it gets three-bet to me by a known, thinking player, I call down and bet into any weakness.

[/ QUOTE ]

bdk3clash fastplays everything here, so there will be no defining accomplished unless he folds.

[afk]

I like your turn and river lines. And I think raising the river is good unless he will lay down AQ, AA or a set - in which case you'll get 3bet or he'll fold, which makes the raise useless. I would have raised the river (edit: I don't know the opponent but I might not raise against one I knew really well) and called the 3bet. I don't like capping because AK is looking like the only real possibility but I also can't lay down this hand.

[turnipmonster]

fwiw, I think the play is to raise the river and fold to a 3 bet. I just sucked out on JJ,QQ,TT,AA (24 ways to have those total), am ahead of AA/AQ (18 ways) and behind only AK (8 ways).

this all obviously assumes he will bet a set/overpair on the river and pay off a raise, but if he will I think raising is the play as long as I can fold to a 3 bet, which I unfortunately did not do and my hard earned 10 dollars went directly into bdk's evil coffers /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

agree/disagree?

--turnipmonster

[Derek in NYC]

Hmm, if BDK plays back after a flop raise, it's certainly not ideal. What if you cap it? If he leads the turn, you fold because at best you're chopping against AK. (A set doesn't bet on 4th street into the nuts unless he has turned a boat). If he checks 4th street, check behind. This gives you two chances to spike a bigger set (2 outs), or river an ace for the nuts (4 outs), or get the small str8 (4 outs). If you hit any of your outs (twice), you're fine and it is a call/raise. If you havent improved, although I hate folding the river for 1 bet, I think you can do so here if BDK leads out. (It is possible, though unlikely, that BDK might even check a hand as strong as 99 or TT on the river.)

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]

fwiw, I think the play is to raise the river and fold to a 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so. Seeing as he "knows" you don't have AK, he can 3-bet here with any K and not give up anything at all, and if there's some chance you might actually fold a K, then he definitely should be 3-betting one (and actually any hand he has here if you're willing to fold to a 3-bet but let's not go there because he doesn't know you'll fold to a 3-bet when he has QQ, I'd guess). So I don't think you can fold to a 3-bet because of all this if he knows you know what he knows stuff.

[turnipmonster]

I would agree with your analysis except that he really can't have any king here, he's not 3 betting me out of the BB with KQ/KJ etc. also I never cap HU with position, he may or may not know this.

--turnipmonster

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I would agree with your analysis except that he really can't have any king here, he's not 3 betting me out of the BB with KQ/KJ etc. also I never cap HU with position, he may or may not know this.

--turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he is 3-betting with KQ out of the BB every time. Sometimes with KJs.

This post makes it incredibly clear to me how powerfully a strategy of constant pounding and fastplaying disguises one's hand.

[turnipmonster]

it is a good strategy, especially OOP, very similar to checking 100% after defending your BB HU.

--turnipmonster

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
I would agree with your analysis except that he really can't have any king here, he's not 3 betting me out of the BB with KQ/KJ etc. also I never cap HU with position, he may or may not know this.

--turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, good point about him never having a K here (EDIT: if he doesn't, it's your read but I now see sfer disagrees). Raise and fold to a 3-bet seems right, although that wasn't intuitive at all.

Why don't you ever cap HU in position? I do lots, with high cards and most pairs, I think it's easier to play after the flop and you have quite a lot more fold equity and sometimes opponents even fold 6 outs for one bet on the flop or turn. Also, you're less likely to get 3-bet when you're raising turns for free showdowns and stuff.

[turnipmonster]

I think you should either do it a lot (like you) or not at all, either works. I just find I can extract a lot more postflop by not capping.

[turnipmonster]

I consulted bdk on this and he said he only is 3 betting me with bikes and jalfrezis.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
I just find I can extract a lot more postflop by not capping.

[/ QUOTE ]

Make sure you're using this against thinking players only. You are losing value against most 5/10 6-max players.

Also, I'd be much more inclined to cap KK-TT.

[MAxx]

I'd cap pf, and get at least a raise in on the flop... probably 2. If he 3bets the flop, I'd probably go into call down mode on turn and river.....baring and ace. I the ace comes.....obviously cap him for good measure in case it isnt a split.

oh and as a side note. i like capping with a wider range of hands as my diguise for my capping hands. eff the calling 3bet hands to disguise your capping hands.

[turnipmonster]

assuming the 3 bettor will autobet the flop, am I really giving up that much?

[Stormwolf]

I think I know why your posting this hand, were you worried that your raise on the river didnct acomplished much?He would never call with a worse hand and always three-bet a better?if it is, I would agree

[turnipmonster]

actually, I thought he would pay me off with TT,JJ,QQ,AQ and AA.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
actually, I thought he would pay me off with TT,JJ,QQ,AQ and AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

With AA and AQ, really? I can definitely see him calling with a set but with one pair on a board where he's behind to almost everything? Calling your raise would be terrible.

[turnipmonster]

not very likely but possible. I was pretty sure he would pay off a raise with anything he bet river with.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
actually, I thought he would pay me off with TT,JJ,QQ,AQ and AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

With AA and AQ, really? I can definitely see him calling with a set but with one pair on a board where he's behind to almost everything? Calling your raise would be terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

He would pay me off with all of those hands.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
actually, I thought he would pay me off with TT,JJ,QQ,AQ and AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

With AA and AQ, really? I can definitely see him calling with a set but with one pair on a board where he's behind to almost everything? Calling your raise would be terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

He would pay me off with all of those hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but from what I gather from my SS lurking (and plethora of posting in the past), you're pretty likely to get incredibly tricky. Which is fun.

[StellarWind]

Cap preflop with a range of hands. Your strategy of never capping makes it too easy for BB to punish your steals.

The flop is terrible for you. I can't imagine why so many posters want to raise the flop and turn.

Raise the river and call the 3-bet. Possible hands for bdk3clash are AK (8), KK (1), and <something else>. Given that you are getting 11-1 pot odds you need a completely unreasonable level of certainty that <something else> is impossible to justify folding to the 3-bet.

[MAxx]

"The flop is terrible for you. I can't imagine why so many posters want to raise the flop and turn."

Doesnt that depend on BD's 3bet range? Doesnt it also make a difference on underplaying the preflop.

Horrible flop... its certainly potentially troublesome. But it does depend again. I certainly think it's worth a flop raise with potentially the best hand and potentially the best draw... especially after underplaying preflop. I don't go near a turn raise though.

[Anders_G]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is way to passive against any player.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP! it seems like many posters seem to think otherwise, but believe it or not I'm not trying to contribute to bdk's trust fund this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

Possible holdings of BB include (given that he's a good 2+2er and he knows hero is a not-so-good 2+2er): AK-AJ, (AT), KQ, KJ, (KT) prolly any par >7 depending on his image of you.

Even if he doesn't know that hero never cap preflop he can play quite a wide range with the assumption that hero's postflop-play is poor. Basically hero plays the hand suboptimal pre-flop, on the flop and on the turn. This is truly horrible and why any one of you agree with his overly passive line of play is beyond me.

[tizim]

What do you think are bdk's best lines here on the turn and river with AQ, AJ, and QQ-TT (if he would 3-bet with all of those hands)?

The river looks like a Clarkmeister theorem spot with QQ-TT, but against an opponent who knows that you know this, I'm not quite sure. If bdk played AQ/AJ like this, should the river be a check-fold for him?

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
he knows hero is a not-so-good 2+2er

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
with the assumption that hero's postflop-play is poor

[/ QUOTE ]
You can disagree without being insulting. You are out of line and owe OP an apology /images/graemlins/mad.gif.

Anyway you're basic idea is wrong. You cannot 3-bet more hands (versus just calling) against a player just because he plays poorly postflop. Often you need to 3-bet less against a bad player. You need specific types of bad play to increase your 3-bet range.

Example: Consider a very loose postflop player who will not give free cards if he has something decent. Being bad he only plays his own cards so his behavior cannot be influenced by your 3-bet.

You can play lots of hands against this common type of player because of his poor postflop play. But you need to tighten up your 3-bets compared to other players with a similar open-raise range. The point is that his very-loose-but-no-free-cards style ensures that he wins more than his fair share of pots. He loses a lot of money chasing but his percentage win rate is very good. That lowers the odds you get on any extra bets preflop. Maybe your hand had 51% equity versus his in PokerStove, but you only win 45% in real life because you fold and he doesn't. When you 3-bet this hand preflop you lose 0.1 SB compared to what you would have made by just calling.

[Anders_G]

I apologize for being so harsh. Sorry.

StellarWind: I do not think the player in your example is that similar to hero and therefore I fail to see the relevance of that example in this discussion. Hero's leak is that he is too weak and doesn't punish semibluffs by raising.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
StellarWind: I do not think the player in your example is that similar to hero and therefore I fail to see the relevance of that example in this discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]
The example is intended to make my general concept as clear as possible. Nothing else.

[ QUOTE ]
Hero's leak is that he is too weak and doesn't punish semibluffs by raising.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hero's alleged leak in this hand is that he calls down when he should be raising. There is no evidence that Hero is a folder or gives bad free cards. I don't see any reason Villain should expect enhanced chances of winning the pot because of this style of play. Therefore Villain is getting only normal odds on his 3-bet and should not expand his standard 3-bet range to exploit something that isn't there.

[turnipmonster]

just to clarify, we are discussing a specific line against a specific (very tight) opponent, not the line I would take against a random opponent, which is much different. you can think I'm too weak all you want, but raising the flop or the turn against bdk is simply chip spewing.

if you want to discuss the flop and turn, why don't we discuss it over the hand range I gave in my read (which was pretty much dead on), and you tell me if you still think raising is correct over that hand range.

edit: he's not 3 betting me w/KT,KJ,AJ etc.
--turnipmonster

[turnipmonster]

to expand a little, as I said villian is not 3 betting me with KQs,KJs AJs or anything like that. given that, the range of hands I'm ahead of on the flop is AQ. that's the only hand he can have that will give action like this that I'm beating.

--turnipmonster

[Anders_G]

I read "solid 2+2er" and thought this is a 27/23/2.3ish player. I missed out on the particular part where you mentioned he would only 3-bet AK or big pairs.

If you are so sure that your line is the right one why would you even post the thread in the first place...

[turnipmonster]

no one convinced me otherwise /images/graemlins/smile.gif. and, I learned that my not capping HU strategy sucks!

[turnipmonster]

27/23 is tight!?

[Anders_G]

You didn't say "tight" in your original post, you said "very solid 2+2er" which i interpreted as someone who roughly use the approach denoted by those numbers.

And no, that is not tight.

[colgin]

Will bdk narrow your hand range to AA-KK in the 6-max game if you cap here? Unless so I would go ahead and cap it but it is probaly close.

I would just call the flop and the turn as (as I am sure you know) this is a terrible flop for you against his three-betting hands.

On the river I am torn between just calling like you did and raising and calling a three-bet. If you take that line I don't think folding to a three-bet is an option as I could envision bdk three-betting (i) thinking his set, for example, is still the best hand because he ahs a hard time putting you on a King or an 8 given the way you played, or (ii) thinking he could possibly make you lay down the better hand here if you weren't holding the nuts (which he figures that if you had AK you probably would have raised the turn). If he three-bets you I think you are getting the odds to still call him down.