KK in 4-Table Home Tournament

[pj4533]

What do you do here? (I am repeating from memory)

7-handed. 2 tables remain, 14 people left of a field of 32. Blinds are 4$/$8, with about 5 minutes left until $5/$10. Hero is biggest stack at table with around 300$ in chips. 2 Other people have big stacks at the other table, one with about 400$, one with about 320$. Most other people are around 180-220.

UTG: folds
AntiHero UTG+1: raises to 20$
fold
fold
Hero: raises to 70$ (KK)
fold
fold
AntiHero: pushes for 75$ more on top.

No real reads on this player.....everyone seems to be playing tight though. Easy hands to put him on would be AA KK or AK. I don't have a read on him as to whether he could lay down QQ.

Do I:

1) call? 75$ to win ~300$. I have kings. Hoping he does have QQ or AK. Am I hoping for AK?

2) fold? Put opponent on AA or AK. Figure at best he has AK, in which case I not in THAT great of shape. Especially when a loss would cripple me, with the blinds going up.


Comments on this situation appreciated....if I left something out, please let me know. I guess this is a classic tournament question: aggressively try to gather chips, or wait for a better situation.

-pj

[mlagoo]

Instapush. There's one hand in the deck that beats you, and there are a ton of hands he would be raising like this. There's a good bit of chips in the pot and you don't mind taking it down right now, but you don't mind a call either. Any hand other than AA and you're in great shape. I push here in a second (actually, I probably coffeehouse for a bit first to try and get a call... but im a sucker =)

Sorry you ran into AA though.

[pj4533]

[ QUOTE ]
Instapush. There's one hand in the deck that beats you, and there are a ton of hands he would be raising like this. There's a good bit of chips in the pot and you don't mind taking it down right now, but you don't mind a call either. Any hand other than AA and you're in great shape. I push here in a second (actually, I probably coffeehouse for a bit first to try and get a call... but im a sucker =)

Sorry you ran into AA though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm, INSTA? Really? Am I giving too much folding credit for hands like QQ or other pairs?

In this situation is an AceFace suited to my benefit? Obviously I am what...65%-35% to AKs, but that 35% puts me at 100$ and change with the blinds at 5/10 soon. Forcing me to do the SmallStackShuffle (tm) to even try to make the money. And I am HOPING for that situation? PLUS, He could easily have aces!

Or is do you just have to suck it up and risk it if you want to win?

-pj

[mlagoo]

If you're not willing to take a 65-35 edge, maybe poker isnt your game.

edit: also, i dont know what you mean by "giving too much folding credit to hands like QQ"

you dont want those hands to fold. you want them to come along.

I would be thrilled to put all my chips in here against any other hand than AA. Unless you know this person to be the biggest rock ever, this is an instapush, with maybe a distant second being a call to to try and let him get a piece of a flop (and hoping that piece isnt an ace).

[trevorwc]

You absolutely have to push this. I don't understand how you could even think of doing anything different. It seems to me like you're terrified of losing - but guess what, you're never (okay, almost never) going to get your money in as a 100% lock.

You say that if it's AK, then 35% of the time you're down to almost no chips. Well, let's say he showed you K2o. Would you still fold because 10% of the time you'd be down to almost no chips? There's ALWAYS a chance you can get drawn out on, but when you have a hand like that, it's as weak-tight as you can get to not push-push.

[pj4533]

I called his all-in for ~75$ more. He turns over AK of hearts. I dodged the aces, but he caught his flush on the river.

Left me in a tough position, and I went out the tournament a short while later.

I am not complaining, just want to make sure I played it correctly. Does anyone lay down kings there? Seems to me that the BEST I could hope for was AceFace, and even then I was only 60% to win.

-pj

[pj4533]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're not willing to take a 65-35 edge, maybe poker isnt your game.

edit: also, i dont know what you mean by "giving too much folding credit to hands like QQ"

you dont want those hands to fold. you want them to come along.

I would be thrilled to put all my chips in here against any other hand than AA. Unless you know this person to be the biggest rock ever, this is an instapush, with maybe a distant second being a call to to try and let him get a piece of a flop (and hoping that piece isnt an ace).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I hear you, on the 65/35 in a cash game. In a tournament situation doesn't this change a bit? For an AceFace 60/40 situation, where if you lose, you are crippled isn't it better to wait? I suppose you are right though, that attitude is just a recipe for bleeding off chips.

Btw, I didn't realize you meant insta-push on my initial 50$ raise. I read that wrong. When I said 'folding credit to QQ', I meant that I was giving him credit to fold hands like JJ or something to my 50$ raise.

Along those lines, I suppose *IF* I only raise 50$ there, and not push. I have to be willing to lay down KK there if he represents AA. Otherwise, the raise of 50$ is pointless, and I should have just pushed. Hmmmmm.

-pj

[pj4533]

[ QUOTE ]

You say that if it's AK, then 35% of the time you're down to almost no chips. Well, let's say he showed you K2o. Would you still fold because 10% of the time you'd be down to almost no chips? There's ALWAYS a chance you can get drawn out on, but when you have a hand like that, it's as weak-tight as you can get to not push-push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right I understand that....but when you are a big stack don't you generally want to stay out of 60/40 situations? (edit: until the lower stacks get knocked out, then you need to gamble more) Or even that is being too weak-tight & asking to lose.

-pj

[mlagoo]

Well, first off, it's not 60-40, which changes it somewhat, its 65-35. that's not a minor change.

and second, when i said push, i actually meant call. the raise to 70 is fine. you have to remember, a hand like KK preflop is a great hand, so in addition to chasing out a few marginal holdings which would make you a dog to the field, you are raising for value. you're thrilled when he pushes here because you're dominating all but one hand.

if you're going to fold every hand but AA to an allin preflop, you just... arent going to win tournaments. stuff like this is why poker is fun! so many poker players these days arent into gambling... its crazy =) to all but one hand, youre either 80-20 or 65-35... CAALLLLLL

edit: I also understand that you're talking more in the context of a tournament. Even in that context, however, you're still looking good... You've got 10xBB even if you do get sucked out on here. That's really not that bad of a situation. And the odds you're being offered are ridiculous... something like 185 in the pot, 75 to call... getting 2.5:1 with KK is a situation I am very happy to be in.

Think about whether or not you would have posted this if you had won the pot.

[pj4533]

Yeah I suppose you are right.

Well...I mean, I DID call after all! Maybe I am making it more tough than it has to be. The odds alone make this a profitable call.

-pj

[DemonDeac]

[ QUOTE ]


I called his all-in for ~75$ more. He turns over AK of hearts. I dodged the aces, but he caught his flush on the river.

Left me in a tough position, and I went out the tournament a short while later.

I am not complaining, just want to make sure I played it correctly. Does anyone lay down kings there? Seems to me that the BEST I could hope for was AceFace, and even then I was only 60% to win.

-pj

[/ QUOTE ]

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

20,547,648 games 0.101 secs 203,442,059 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 65.8936 % [ 00.65 00.00 ] { KK }
Hand 2: 34.1064 % [ 00.34 00.00 ] { AKs }



If you pass this up. something's wrong with you. you made the right play

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]

What do you do here? (I am repeating from memory)


[/ QUOTE ]

Make a sarcastic post. Ready???


[ QUOTE ]

Do I:

1) call?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes

[ QUOTE ]

2) fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

no

[ QUOTE ]
Especially when a loss would cripple me, with the blinds going up.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, it won't.

So let me get this straight. You want to fold for t75 when there's t225 already in the pot...with KINGS, when it won't cripple you in the least? (Hint, you'll have around the average stack if you lose)

[ QUOTE ]
or wait for a better situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd love to be privy to a this "better situation" you speak so highly of.

So, in short, folding would be insane.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You say that if it's AK, then 35% of the time you're down to almost no chips. Well, let's say he showed you K2o. Would you still fold because 10% of the time you'd be down to almost no chips? There's ALWAYS a chance you can get drawn out on, but when you have a hand like that, it's as weak-tight as you can get to not push-push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right I understand that....but when you are a big stack don't you generally want to stay out of 60/40 situations? (edit: until the lower stacks get knocked out, then you need to gamble more) Or even that is being too weak-tight & asking to lose.

-pj

[/ QUOTE ]

Why in god's name would you want to avoid +EV situations as the big stack?

[pj4533]

[ QUOTE ]
Why in god's name would you want to avoid +EV situations as the big stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think the main point of this whole conversation is that I forgot one key thing (someone mentioned it here): Poker is gambling.

I had an edge, so I need to use that edge, no matter how small. (In this case it was actually a good edge tho!)

I ended up making the correct play, but I am glad I posted here. Thanks for getting my mindset right.

-pj

[JC_Saves]

it costs you 75 to 300, well that is 4 to 1 odds.

If he has AA you are a 4 to 1 underdog. Easy call.

If he has AK you are big favorite. Pot equity 68% to 31% Easy Call

if he has any PP below KK, you are 4 to 1 favorite. Easy call.

In short when you have KK you pretty much have to play them like you hae AA because the vast majority of the time that will be the case. This situation is the easiest call in the book, no thought process needed.

If he had AA then it wouldn't matter what PP you had, you still need to improve to win, but it would still be a no brainer to call. Even if you lose, you still are about average stack or slightly less than average and the blind levels compared to your stack are nothing to worry about.