Calling a raise from BB vs lone EP

[nomdeplume]

Most of the books I've read (including GSIH, SSH and ITH) all recommend calling a raise with hands such as Axs and K9s when in the big blind, regardless of the raiser's position and number of people in the pot.

I'm wondering whether these calls can be profitable against a lone EP raiser with solid raising standards? I know that starting hand charts are only a guide, so I'm wondering what others do in these situations? Should I only call if there is at least one other caller in these situations, or is a hand like Axs good enough to play against a lone tight raiser getting only 3.5:1 pot odds?

Thanks

[crunchy1]

Having to ask this question should have already provided you with the answer.

[mtdoak]

because you're rarely a 3.5 to 1 underdog with these hands.

[nomdeplume]

[ QUOTE ]
because you're rarely a 3.5 to 1 underdog with these hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I've just been playing around with pokerstove which confirms that this is indeed the case. I asked it to evaluate the equity of Axs against the range {AA-TT, AKs-AJs, AK-AQ}. Axs was only slightly worse than a 2:1 dog. K9s was also only about a 2.2:1 dog and 87s was about the same.

However, this leads me to another related question.

When I do the same thing with 87o, it turns out that this is only a 2.6:1 dog, and even 72o is only a 3.4:1 dog. No one recommends calling the big blind with these heads up. Why is this?

[J. Sawyer]

Those hands are very hard to play correctly to showdown, so its not worth the small equity you gain by playing hands like 72o.

[coffeecrazy1]

Well...remember that recommendations are all perception, but most people perceive that they would not like to put up equal money for a 1 in 4 chance of success. Think of the money as an investment, and the odds your odds of return. If you will lose your investment 75% of the time, then maybe that is not the best investment strategy.

[damaniac]

Because your equity doesn't take into account how the hand plays out postflop. If all that happened was your opponent raised, you called, and you just saw the next 5 cards without betting, pokerstove would be all you need.

However, you may flop a pair of 2's (with 72o) on a board that's something like AJ2. Maybe you have the best hand. Maybe you are way behind. You can fold, but if you fold the best hand reasonably often, which may happen with these types of hands, you won't show a profit here. If on the other hand you decide to play, you will often be behind a bigger pair and lose a few bets figuring out that you are behind. Some opponents will just overcards HU too so it's not like you can bet/fold all the time.

When you hit a weak hand (a low pair) which is most of the time you hit, and your hand is best, you are not going to get paid particularly well as that means opponents has overcards. OTOH, when you hit a pair you either risk folding the best hand to continued aggression or paying all the way to showdown to often find out you are no good, whereas opponent isn't usually paying off a river without a pair.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]


However, this leads me to another related question.

When I do the same thing with 87o, it turns out that this is only a 2.6:1 dog, and even 72o is only a 3.4:1 dog. No one recommends calling the big blind with these heads up. Why is this?

[/ QUOTE ]

you are out of position, and at a disadvantage thoughout the hand. whenever you should win with a pair (which is a huge chunk of any hands' winnings HU) you may be very very scared and fold the best hand. You're really only comfortable with two pair or better. You'll get pushed off the best hand a lot and will often be unable to extract the maximum when you do win.

many of the times that pokerstove sees you winning is when you hit an 8 or 7 on the river against his unimproved AK, which this guy isn't even let you draw to.

[moomoocow]

I think the answer probably hinges on bad position and future streets. If you were going all in with the call, then by all means, call away with 7-2o.

If not, you've got to be thinking about all the other streets. EP is always betting the flop - Unless the flop is rags and/or you've flopped 2 pair or better... You're going to be unhappy the rest of the hand.

Cheers,

[nomdeplume]

Thanks to everyone who replied.

I suspected that it was postflop strategic advantages which make hands like 87o unprofitable but 87s profitable. GSIH talks about this in detail, although not specifically in this situation. The fact that the hand is suited adds approximately 4% equity.

For example, 87o is about a 2.6:1 dog, but 87s is only a 2.2:1 dog. It just surprises me that this is enough to render a hand such as 87o unprofitable. I would have thought that unless you flop either two pair or a pair+a draw, you'd probably be folding much of the time to aggression in either case. Obviously you've more chance of flopping a draw if the hand is suited, but it surprises me that this makes so much difference.

It's certainly got me thinking anyway! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[jba]

another thing to remember is although it adds "only" 4% equity, your hand is 20% better when it is suited (both clauses obviously mean the same thing, but in different wording)

anyways my point is that the added equity is significant, and the added draw (you will flop a four flush 10% of the time) you will pick up is nice.

[droidboy]

[ QUOTE ]
Because your equity doesn't take into account how the hand plays out postflop. If all that happened was your opponent raised, you called, and you just saw the next 5 cards without betting, pokerstove would be all you need.

However, you may flop a pair of 2's (with 72o) on a board that's something like AJ2. Maybe you have the best hand. Maybe you are way behind. You can fold, but if you fold the best hand reasonably often, which may happen with these types of hands, you won't show a profit here. If on the other hand you decide to play, you will often be behind a bigger pair and lose a few bets figuring out that you are behind. Some opponents will just overcards HU too so it's not like you can bet/fold all the time.

When you hit a weak hand (a low pair) which is most of the time you hit, and your hand is best, you are not going to get paid particularly well as that means opponents has overcards. OTOH, when you hit a pair you either risk folding the best hand to continued aggression or paying all the way to showdown to often find out you are no good, whereas opponent isn't usually paying off a river without a pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. You are correct.

However, your objection are impossible to satisfy. There is a great deal of context in any given hand, and it would be impossible to create an easy to use tool which would take into account all possible scenarios.

On the other hand, equity does provide useful information. If you understand the other issues that go into your final expected value, you should be able to make better informed decisions if you know the equity.

That said, I agree that equity is one of the most misused concepts, especially when applied without much thought.

- Andrew

www.pokerstove.com (http://www.pokerstove.com)

[AliasMrJones]

Part of the reason 78s is preferable is that it is easier to play a straight or flush draw than a small/medium pair. With a pair of 7's on a Q73 board it can be difficult to know where you stand against a PF raiser with position. With a flush or straight draw it becomes relatively easy to play postflop. The 78s is going to give you better/easier flops more often even when compared to a hand with the same or more total pot equity.