Playing .50/1.00 game for experience

[Loren]

It seems that the experts advice, many times, to beginners is to play in a cheap game to learn. Once you feel you can beat it, move up. OK. But how can anyone learn how to play the game of holdem when up against players who are there to play showdown. I tryto play tight and aggressive and pretty much follow the dictums of Lee Jones. To no useful purpose. Most of the times 5 or 6 people see the flop and if they hit anything at all, will go all the way the the river and beat your buns off. It does no good to raise preflop to protect against these sorts of players.
I know you say, that in the long run just play better cards than the river rats and you will prevail. It just doesn't seem to work that way with me. Advice anyone? Would sure appreciate it.

[StoneAge]

These games can be frustrating, but when you hit a hand you get paid a lot. The answer to your question depends on a few things. First how big of a bankroll do you have. I assume that at .5-1 you have a significant bankroll - can you afford to lose $200? Another important question, can you usually get in for one bet or are a lot of the pots 3 bet or capped? If there are a lot of bets going in before the flop you could just play AA-JJ and AKs-AJs and probably make money. If it is usually one bet before the flop you should be playing any suited A and any pairs. You are looking to flop the nuts, close to it or flush/straight draws in this kind of game. If you flop a flush or open end straight and you will have at least three callers no matter what, you should put as many bets in as you can on the flop (in general). Do not raise if people will drop. Look to raise the flop for a free card on the turn. Don't call on the flop with hands like middle pair, especially if hitting your kicker will complete a straight. If the pot is big (which it usually is in these type of games) you can call the flop with middle or bottom pair with overcard kicker (if it doesn't complete straights or flushes especially) and fold the turn if you don't hit. Gutshot straights (to the nut straight) can be profitable in these games.

[bernie]

im one of the few who disagree that you should beat a LL game before you can beat a Higher lmit game...

if you have the cash, play what limit your comfortable with...why? the textures on a LL game arent always present in a higher limit...and vice versa. there are 'good' players who can beat a higher limit, 'tougher' game but cant beat a LL game because they dont know how to adjust for it, thus they try and play their normal way and end up not maximizing wins and sometimes lose overall, then blame it on the bad players at the table...

as for your problem...read the loose games section of HPFAP...and reread it...there are many adjustments to be made that contradict solid ABC play....

b

[Fitz]

Loren,

Being swarmed by a school of fish can be frustrating, but it happens at the higher limits too. It obviously doesn't happen as often, but it does happen. Think about it this way, you make money when you opponents make mistakes, and in these games, they are making a ton of them. One of the most important things you will have to master to become a successful poker player is self control, and this is good place to start. Follow Lee Jones and HPFAP, read these forums and post some hands; that will help a bunch.

Also, I don't know where you are playing, but I'm on Paradise right now, and I see 5 .50/1.00 games with flop percentages between 30 and 40%; these games should be loose enough to be profitable with out being totally full of maniacs.

Good luck,

[Louie Landale]

Most of the time, the player with the "best" hand AND the player with the "best" draw are profiting from everybody else.

In a minority opinion: I believe your unsuited "good" hands do BETTER against numerous loose players: AQ WANTS the idiot and his cousins with 85o to call. A psuedo exception are the real "trouble" that I believe do worse against several reasonable players: KJ does NOT want the reasonable 87s to call. IF so, you and many other readers need to change your perspective about loose players.

Never-the-less, the REAL profit you get from loose players is when you end up making a big hand, not when you end up making a big pair. Big suited hands and small pairs profit enormously from the loose players. This means [1] you may want to raise pre-flop with these hands in late position after several callers. Even 87s is worth a raise on the button after several loose callers. [2] Do not hesitate to raise or even cap the flop when you flop a big draw (such as the nut flush draw or some combination of flush+straight draws: you'll likely win one time in three (2:1 against) but are getting 5 or 6:1 for you money. [3] Rarely get tricky when you flop a set or better: mindlessly flail away unless you can think of a compelling reason to do otherwise, hehehe.

- Louie

[Loren]

Stone Age:

Thank you for your prompt response and very good advice.

[Loren]

Bernie

Thanks much for your advice. I have been reluctant to purchase HEFAP for the very reason that I am a beginner and certainly didn't want to get in over my head, so soon in my education. Glad you told me there is a section of LL holdem loose games I'm going to buy the book soon.. Thanks again.

[Loren]

Fitz:

Thank you very much for your fine response.. I shall heed your advice re: HEFAP and the paradise games. As an aside, I see that a player can keep notes on his opponents. Then they, of course, can keep notes on you. At this level of play, is it your opinion whether or not these players would bother. to make notations on the opposition. In your opinion, what is a good random method to make occasional plays that can misguide the others as to your ability at the tables? Again thanks.

[Fitz]

I know players at the lower limits do keep notes, and I keep notes on the people I play with. It really came home to me one night when I was chatting with another player in my game, and he said, "You should see the notes I've got on you." I primarily note playing style, raising standards, any unusual playing patterns I notice.

As far as tricky moves. Be careful with those. It is very easy to get tricky and outsmart yourself. I play a very straightforward game 95% of the time. The times when I do something "tricky" are times when I see something in the texture of a game that makes me think it will be profitable. I prefer to play a nice tight aggressive game, and look for places where I can exploit the errors made by my opponents. If you must try trickery, I would stick to a well timed semi-bluff or strong move heads up. An example would be when you have a player to your right who likes to raise in early position; if I can put him on big cards AK, AQ, AJ or the like, I like to 3 bet with hands down to 77
to isolate. If no big cards come on the flop pound away. With a play like this, you may look like a maniac to some, but you aren't really giving up much.

Good luck,

[angelo alba]

If the gods were kinder we'd be in Vegas at a $300-$600 table and the only other players would be those 5-6 people that see the flop with nothing. (Presumably they just got very lucky at Baccarat or Roulette, are half smashed on free drinks and decide to have a go at HE ).

On line at .50-1.00 , well it's a different story. My copy of HEFAP is a foot away but I'm too lazy to reach for it right now, so briefly from my experience with family pots:

a) Yes of course play AA-JJ (as if you didn't know that)
b) Play ANY pair, you're probably getting favorable pot odds.
c) Play Ax or Kx suited.

Post flop, do not slowplay and if the flop misses, at the risk of sounding weak-tight, dump it! In a saner game, it's a different story.

A while back, I saw the following in a very low limit online game:

UTG+1 opened, everybody folded to BB. Flop was 2c, Jh, Ad.
BB checked. UTG+1 bet, BB check raised and to make a long story short the BB lost the showdown when a 4c fell on the river. The BB had a pair of 2's. He slowplayed his set at first then came out blazing.

UTG+1 had 3-5 offsuit.

The interesting thing was not that the BB decided to slowplay his set and check raise, I doubt a straight bet would have caused someone willing to go to the river with 3-5o to fold; nor even that a loon won the hand but that there were ONLY 2 players in the hand.

Just as in some games players take turns going on tilt after a bad beat, in this game players seemed to take turns being maniacs, Yet ONLY 2-3 on average saw the flop. This went on and on. Go figure.

I finally was able to take my eyes off this macabre fascination, it was very much like watching a bad accident on the road.

Very Low HE games can be a learning ground, but they can also be a universe of lunacy beyond comprehension. If this is the kind of madness you're encountering, then I'd suggest that as soon as you can afford it to move up to a higher limit.

On the other hand, if after all the advice you've gotten on the forum, you find yourself consistently winning, then you are getting 'experience' /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[StoneAge]

Louie, I agree with you that the unsuited big cards like AQ do fine in loose games - see the pokerroom.com starting hand EV stats thread, in the Texas Hold'em General forum. I think I disagree with the 87s raise btf in this type of game, it just seems too speculative a hand to me.

[bernie]

even with limited experience, the loose games section should help. its not real big so it shouldnt overwhelm you. dont worry about understanding ALL of it...if you only gain 1 or 2 concepts from it you will benefit. but remember to keep building your foundation with other books too to broaden your understanding.

no one learns the book the first time through, not even the beginning books... you may be suprised that some concepts may make real good sense to you...if they dont, they likely will later on....

b